User profile for user: coopguy
coopguy Author
User level: Level 1
0 points

Partition Map Schemes: HFS+ and FAT32 partitions with OSX and Windows

OK so I know this question has been practically beaten to death, but I keep finding conflicting information. I am using a 2011 MacBook Pro, on which I will set up Windows through Boot Camp. I recently purchased a 750 GB WD external hard drive to use with time machine for a backup on my Mac. However, I also need to be able to use part of this for Windows files. SO.. I intend to use the HFS+ partition for the the Mac (500GB) and create a FAT 32 partition (250GB) to use for backing up windows files (using it for solely computer modeling and need to be able to transfer/share files with Mac users who use Parallels as well as copying to PC desktops). My question is what to use as the partition map scheme. I have heard that when using these two partition types, a Master Boot Record is needed (so Windows can recognize the FAT32 partition) and also that a GUID partition map is required for use with time machine, meaning windows would no longer be able to read the FAT32 partition. Is there a way to reconcile this? Either using Time Machine with HFS+ partition that is set to MBR or uisng FAT32 on Windows with a GUID partition map? Also if I were to use Parallels (with a GUID setup) instead of Boot Camp, could that be the way to save the windows files to the FAT32 Partition and avoid problems with Time Machine not working with MBR? Thanks for any expertise, as I have heard that both setups that I have mentioned both will work and both will not work. Any experience with a similar situation?

MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.7.1), External Hard Drive Partitions

Posted on Oct 7, 2011 6:40 PM

Reply
10 replies
User profile for user: steve359
steve359
User level: Level 6
17,187 points

Oct 7, 2011 6:49 PM in response to coopguy

First ... backup disks are backup disk only, IMHO. My opinion is not unique in the forum.


Second ... GPT (GUID Partition Table) can have both NTFS and Applle partitions on it ... I have a WD drive like this now. But do not do this for a backup disk ... IMHO.


Third ... Download CarbonCopyClone (free download). Make a bit-wise clone of your startup disk. This clone is bootable and serves as a boot disk to help evaluate primary HD failure. That is NOT an opinion, but fact.


Buy a bus-powered 500 GB (cheap) for "only files, no backup" drive.


Save the self-powered external, formatted as GUID by DiskUtility, for CCC.


As to your question about TM and MBR ... Apple says it will write to a MBR disk, but only to a VERY low limit (10 GB I think, or maybe MB?). Not worth th effort.

Reply
User profile for user: lupunus
lupunus
User level: Level 4
1,000 points

Oct 7, 2011 6:54 PM in response to coopguy

coopguy wrote:

I intend to use the HFS+ partition for the the Mac (500GB) and create a FAT 32 partition (250GB) to use for backing up windows files (using it for solely computer modeling and need to be able to transfer/share files with Mac users who use Parallels as well as copying to PC desktops).

Hello,


FAT32 have a 4GB filesize limit and is (even for windows) outdated. Think about a 4.5GB video ....


Better options are:


  1. Teach your Mac to speak NTFS
  2. Teach your Windows to speak HFS+


-> 1) There are different ways. Using MacFuse, NTFS-3g or a Paragons NTFS for Mac. All three ways working well.

http://www.paragon-software.com/de/home/ntfs-mac/

http://code.google.com/p/macfuse/

http://macntfs-3g.blogspot.com/


-> 2) Best way for that is Paragon HFS for Windows

http://www.paragon-software.com/home/hfs-windows/


The MacFuse or NTFS-3g way's need a bit work but run perfectely, Paragons driver works well too, but will cost a small amount of money.



Lupunus

Reply
User profile for user: coopguy
coopguy Author
User level: Level 1
0 points

Oct 7, 2011 9:30 PM in response to steve359

Wow. Thanks for the extremely quick responses. Just for a few points of clarification.. I'm a complete newb at backing up strategies.


Steve, you would recommend to not backup files from my Mac OSX and files from Windows (also on my Mac) on the same drive, correct?


I appreciate the strategy of using it only as a backup, that makes quite a bit of sense. However, if I want to only backup my OSX files, and also store (solely as backup copies) say, a number of computer models (Rhino, Revit, etc.) that were created in Windows programs (not needing to store the entire Windows disk), would it not make sense to store these on the same drive in a different partition, creating the need for two different partition formats? And if I were to do this, maybe I should use NTFS instead of FAT32 (and reformat to GUID since that seems to be a standard for Apple and Windows 7 recognizes it..?) to keep them completely separate since the computer model files cannot be opened unless running the Windows programs.


How do you use your drive with HFS+ and NTFS if not for backups? I will not need to access the HFS+ backup files in Windows, nor need to access files from an NTFS partition in OSX, so that seems to simplify things in that, at least at the moment, I will not need any Paragon software.


Currently my drive is partitioned as HFS+ and FAT32 as MBR, with the HFS+ partition set up with Time Machine. It appears to be successful, I see my files in Mac HD -> "users" and all my docs, desktop items, etc. are listed. Seems that there is in fact no limit on TM's use of MBR maps, or else it is way above 160GB.


Third, are you using CarbonCopyClone in place of Time Machine or in addition to it? If in addition would it create the bit-wise clone on the same HFS+ partition as TM is backing up to? Or a separate drive? I'd like to only have one external that I am backing up to for simplicity's sake. I've never used TM before, so this is all new to me. Also, I suppose I have been missing the distinction between storing copies of files, and making a complete backup of a disk image... just now realizing the difference. Thanks so much.

Reply
User profile for user: steve359
steve359
User level: Level 6
17,187 points

Oct 7, 2011 9:51 PM in response to coopguy

OK ... let me work on this ...


Backups in general ... at least two external self-powered disks.


Why 2? Disks die, and if one disk takes all of your backups with it, you are "unhappy".


Usage: Each one soley dedicated to backups, to prevent corruption from "other use". I am being slightly unwise in my TM sharing with NTFS (some may say "idiotic"), but my CarbonCopyClone backup is "dedicated" so I guess I am *somewhat* smart.


The HFS+/NTFS is really an experiment, to save disk $$. But now that I know it works, I need to clear the NTFS off the TM drive, which means $$. Not a horrible idea for "just data", but horrible for backups.


TM: Stores files, in folders. Each folder from a different backup. You can cherry-pick a version of a file from a given date/time to recover. TM runs in fewer resources, as it is just individual files, but you cannot boot from any of those backup sets. You need a functional system to use that TM data.


CCC: True bit-by-bit image. As bootable as the original. But I keep my system relatively quiet to keep that image "complete" during the backup.


Bottom line is this: Backups restore your system in case of disaster. If EVER a situation called for KISS (Keep It Simple Sucker), this is the time.


And, why backup drives of 2x-3x original? Multiple copies of files will grow to beyond original startup disk size.

Reply
User profile for user: lupunus
lupunus
User level: Level 4
1,000 points

Oct 8, 2011 5:17 AM in response to steve359

steve359 wrote:


OK ... let me work on this ...


Backups in general ... at least two external self-powered disks.


Why 2? Disks die, and if one disk takes all of your backups with it, you are "unhappy".

First I would recommend to read "ds store's" article series, although I've a different position on one or two points of his argumentation e.g. the filesystem thing.


Second, you should differ between "backup" and "backup" as there are different general reasons to backup data e.g..

  • Having a backup of selected data on a drive for interchange or mobility.
  • Having a backup like TimeMachine to restore eventually different "time" versions of a file, project or application.
  • Having a backup for security matters or to be able to restore a (eventually bootable) snapshot of the complete system if e.g. the system disk fail.
  • Having real backup strategies with different stages of every system you own and the data kept on at least two independent storage's except the system itself e.g. for legal hold of the data or in case of fire.


Take a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup and the "see also" links at the end of the article.



Lupunus

Reply
User profile for user: coopguy
coopguy Author
User level: Level 1
0 points

Oct 8, 2011 3:17 PM in response to steve359

This has actually been fantastic. Thanks everyone. I have been truly enlightened into how these systems actually function, whereas I was completely ignorant before.


My Plan: As I just purchased a large external 'portable' drive, I will reformat it to GPT using HFS+ and re-set up TM even though MBR appears to function correctly (better safe...) (and maybe keep a 100GB FAT32 partition just in case, since the external is 250GB more than my internal HD and is my only backup at the moment save for my old computer, which is still functioning). The external has no power source of its own, so I suppose I will save up for a larger external with a power supply at some point in the near future to make a clone using CCC. Eventually I'll transition my current 'portable' TM drive to be storage-only and get a second external with a power supply to be the "TM drive". Three drives seemed like alot to handle, but I now see the point and value as they all serve different purposes, although having different partitions has the same initial effect, I also see how that could be huge a disadvantage for actual data/system recovery needs.


It is 'comforting' that I now have some knowledge to create a competent and redunant backup system, especially as I venture on to Grad school next year (i.e. many large file creations with frequent changes).


Thanks again for all the links to other discussions and pages, they're all extermely helpful.. espeically ds store's looong article, which is great. Here's looking forward to participating in the Apple support community more in the future.


- the co-op guy

Reply

This thread has been closed by the system or the community team. You may vote for any posts you find helpful, or search the Community for additional answers.

Partition Map Schemes: HFS+ and FAT32 partitions with OSX and Windows

Welcome to Apple Support Community
A forum where Apple customers help each other with their products. Get started with your Apple Account.
Learn more Sign up