Powerbook 3400 dead, dead, dead.

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Powerbook 3400 dead, dead, dead.

My 3400 has sat dead since it failed to start-up over six months ago. After reading recent discussions re. similar problems, I decided to have a go at reviving it. I don't recall all the circumstances of its initial failure as it was some time ago and I wrote it off at the time. I presumed the charger was done for as it stayed 'cold' even after several hours of being plugged in when it was always warm when running the machine. For whatever reason, I left it sit in the corner rather than throw it out.

It has no signs of life: no sleep light, no electronic crackling, no chime, no drive, nothing.

I've tried the Power Manager reset process numerous times and in all possible combinations with and without main and back-up PRAM battery (as suggested in Whoopis and related topics here) with no result.

I have since determined that the charger is working; in fact, I now have two as I replaced the original with another working used one! I've had both tested as good at a local computer shop but they don't service MACs so that's extent of help I can get from them. (don't know why I didn't do this first--live and learn.)

I don't know if the main battery is good or dead. It's got to be completely uncharged at this point. Is a working battery (capable of charging when completely uncharged) required to power up? Do you have to have a battery dead or alive in the slot to power up? I have no means to test my battery and don't have a second to try.

However, when the the machine died, it was holding a charge for 1-2 hours use (not great but manageable). I do seem to recall (although not certain) that the thing didn't want to shut-down (ie. kept turning back on at shutdown) and that I was forced to pull the plug on it. This may be some 'creative memory' as I may have read of this on the discussion sites. I do know that the track-pad had begun to misbehave and finally fail completely so I could only use the mouse. I've read this could indicate a problem with the power supply board. Is this right?

"Unable to start..." (Jan.4) revived his machine simply with a new PRAM battery. I'd been led to believe from previous discussions on this topic that the back-up (or PRAM) battery isn't required for start-up. And the Whoopis site trouble-shoot list doesn't list PRAM battery replacement as a solution.

So, I'm down to replacing the power supply board and have a new one ready to go in. However, before doing that, I'd like to get the PRAM battery issue sorted if that's possibly really the problem. Is there some way to test the PRAM battery? Is it required for power up? Is a good main battery required for start up or should the machine power up just off the charger?

I'm willing to go as far as a new PRAM battery and/or power supply board before throwing in the towel. Obviously, I'd like to avoid a further mistake like replacing a working charger.

Failing that, I've got a 3400 180 for parts for anyone interested.

Powerbook 3400, Mac OS 8.6 or Earlier

Posted on Jan 26, 2006 6:06 PM

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Answer 1

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

Jan 26, 2006 9:23 PM in response to oldmacguy

oldmacguy,

You have reported several symptoms and tests which greatly helps in troubleshooting the no-start.

Regarding the PRAM battery (internal rechargeable backup battery): This battery is not required to start or run the 3400. Apple has a battery test procedure but it does require a working powerbook. Even though this article refers to the G3 powerbooks, it also applies to the 3400:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=30580

If a powerbook is allowed to sit unused or is stored for several months, the main battery can run flat, then the internal backup battery follows. What often results is a corrupted power manager that cannot be cleared in the normal manner and you have a no-start condition. Disconnecting the battery allows the power manager and PRAM to clear and permit a startup, assuming you have no other hardware problems. A backup battery that has developed an internal short can also prevent a startup.

I would remove the main battery while troubleshooting; the powerbook will run quite nicely without a main battery.

According to Apple, if power manager resets and a known-good power adapter do not allow a startup, it is either the power supply card or the logic board, but there are a few other items which may also be involved.

You mentioned the trackpad failure; Apple says if a mouse moves the cursor, replace the trackpad...this is after checking all connections. If a replacement trackpad does not solve the problem, then replace the logic board.

I would try a startup after these steps:

1. Remove all power and disconnect all peripherals.

2. Lift off keyboard, then disconnect the keyboard ribbon cable from the logic board. On Powerbook G3s a bad keyboard can prevent startup.

3. Disconnect the internal backup battery and leave it disconnected.

4. Carefully remove and reseat the RAM module, if present, in the customer slot.

5. Now connect only the power adapter and press the reset button on the back panel; if like my 1400, pressing this button will start the powerbook without the need of a keyboard.

Practice good anti-static procedures by grounding yourself to the metal frame of the powerbook before touching electronics, or use a grounding strap from your wrist to the powerbook metal frame.

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Answer 2

oldmacguy Author

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Jan 27, 2006 2:34 PM in response to oldmacguy

Thanks JPL for the help and quick reply.

I'll follow thru your procedure some of which I have already done but not quite so systematically. Just a couple points. The machine would not start up prior to it sitting for six months ie. same condition as now so I expect I have more than just dead batteries. I have already employed the procedure to clear corrupted PRAM without any power source (ie. both batteries out, power supply disconnected) but I'll try again.

I'm using the Whoopis take apart guide along with tips from this discussion forum.

It seems to me I have 3 possibilities to eliminate in this order once I've re-done the PRAM procedure:

1. Keyboard (had noted this on another discussion but it wasn't clear that it could prevent start-up 2. shorted out PRAM battery (I'm crossing my fingers for this one) 3. Power supply board (this has seemed the likely culprit from the start and I have a supposed 'new' board bought off eBay ready to go in. I say supposed because it arrived in an open, unsealed package so I have no way to know its condition so it could be a dud.)

Then it's down to the logic board and game over. Probably same if it's the keyboard although they seem be relatively inexpensive as I recall.

Wish me luck. It's been a bit of fun whatever the outcome but its the last machine I'm about to take apart. Upgrades fine but sad to say this diy fix just isn't worth the hassle despite my strong repair, reuse, recycle inclinations. Nobody in these parts will even look at a current MAC much less this dinosaur. And it's an hour plus drive to the Mac used shop who don't even keep parts anymore.

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Answer 3

oldmacguy Author

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Jan 27, 2006 2:55 PM in response to oldmacguy

One small question I missed: I take it by RAM module you mean the RAM card. And is the 'customer slot' the place the card is supposed to sit in its connector? In other words, you do mean to simply remove and reseat in its original position.

Oh yeah, and is the track-pad failure in some way possibly related to no start-up 'cause I can live without the trackpad if it will run without it.

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Answer 4

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

Jan 27, 2006 10:19 PM in response to oldmacguy

oldmacguy,

Yes, regarding the RAM card...reseat the card; The 3400 came with 16 MB of RAM soldered to the logic board; the "customer" slot allowed an additional 128 MB of RAM for a maximum of 144 MB.

The trackpad can fail yet not prevent the powerbook from starting; you did mention it was not working in your first post but the 'book continued to operate with a mouse so I doubt this is the issue.

You also mentioned that the 3400 would not shut down and remain so, that it would restart on its own. This is usually caused by corrupted PRAM, so at this point I don't think this in itself would indicate a hardware failure.

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Answer 5

oldmacguy Author

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Jan 28, 2006 9:08 PM in response to jpl

As I thought re RAM board and trackpad--just checking.

So, apart from the keyboard which is simple enough to eliminate it seems to come down to the PRAM and/or a board--power supply and/or logic board.

Well, I've been thru the procedure you outlined twice without any batteries (PRAM or main): with the 'old' power supply board and with the supposed 'new' board. Just for fun I tried once with the 'new' board and the PRAM battery only. Each time I've pushed and held the reset button minimum of 20-30 seconds and repeated minimum 3 times.

So I'm pretty much at a dead end, so to speak.

I said supposed 'new' board because I'm not certain of its condition. Did I mention earlier that it arrived in an unsealed package despite described by ebay seller as new? Although she/he assure of its conditions, I'm not so sure.

Anyway, another PRAM battery eBay seller advises to allow the battery 24-48 hours to charge up after installation. I didn't think it was a rechargeable--that came only with G3s. Do you know? And if it is rechargeable, would a working supply board charge it even without starting up the machine? The reason I ask is that today I finally found a computer guy who could test the PRAM battery and it is virtually dead (about .7 volts).

However, if it is rechargeable and the power supply can recharge it without the machine being on than I have a test for the board.

Re. corrupted PRAM would a working PRAM battery help to uncorrupt it?

I'm going to attempt the whole procedure a couple more times after I let it sit overnight with no power. Or should I leave it sit with the charger plugged in to possibly put some power into the boards to help uncorrupt the PRAM?

Short of that I'm done with it unless there's some other shot in the dark, so to speak, I haven't hit on yet.

Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks.

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Answer 6

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

Jan 28, 2006 10:38 PM in response to oldmacguy

oldmacguy,

Yes, the battery is rechargeable, just like the G3; it performs the same functions and behaves the same.

If the PRAM was corrupted, it certainly would have been flushed when you disconnected the PRAM battery. This is the procedure Apple uses when normal PRAM resets will not clear the PRAM. If the charging circuit of the 3400 is functional, the PRAM battery will charge up with the power adapter connected. If the 'book is not running (sadly it is not) and it is also not charging a main battery, the PRAM battery will fully charge in approximately 4 hours. However, I do not think the PRAM battery has any part in your no-start; unlike a desktop computer, a powerbook runs just fine without this battery.

I am out of ideas. I would, however, connect the keyboard and see if it will start with the power key, just to cover all bases.

You can probably find 3400 logic boards or even working 3400s for a few dollars on eBay if you just like to tinker with these 'books.

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Answer 7

None

Level 2

245 points

Jan 29, 2006 10:59 AM in response to jpl

oldmacguy:

I'm late to this thread and don't have much more to offer, but...

It wasn't absolutely clear whether you had _in fact_ dealt with the RAM card possibility.

If I recall correctly, both 3400's and 3500's had an issue with the RAM card coming loose in its slot. I now have a thin layer of self-adhesive foam on the top side of the card in my 3500 (Kanga) to hold it securely in place.

I don't even know if defective RAM would cause a no start problem, but you might try removing the existing card altogether and testing without.

Also, I was able to find two complete machines of this vintage and form factor on eBay last spring for (what to me) was a song. Apple no longer repairs these computers, but the parts cost me less than the repair alone would have set me back if Apple hadn't orphaned them.

For what (little) it's worth.

Peter B.

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Answer 8

Feb 28, 2006 9:29 PM in response to oldmacguy

This is very late, but have you tried connecting an external keyboard, disconnecting the internal one, then just pressing the reset on the back of the system for about one or two seconds? On my powerbook 3400c, the first time it is pressed the light will come on solid green. The second time, the machine will start up. If you do end up getting rid of the powerbook, let me know. I like to tinker with old apple powerbooks. Plus, it never hurts to have spare parts. I have made my 3400c into my main computer.

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