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  • Baudouin Struye Level 1 (40 points)

    I'm not sure that "Apple still laughs at us".  What interest would they have in that?


    The reality is that it is a pain in the a** to have to reverse engineer other companies software each time a new camera comes out.  If there is any flame to throw at anyone, it is at the camera companies who can't clean up their act enough to make some kind of a standard raw format.  Apple has no obligation to adapt to other manufacturer's lack of standardization.

  • patrickgarner Level 1 (0 points)

    Ouch, that's an uninformed comment.


    The RAW/RAF files vary from camera to camera because each is optimized (and the software tweaked) based on the lens and sensor. It has nothing to do with a "standard raw format."


    One of the underlying complaints that has driven this thread is that Apple lags months behind Adobe with their Aperture updates. Yet they dwarf Adobe in every respect. The lag leaves users who committed their photo libraries to the Apple software waiting endlessly. No doubt the next Aperture update will cover the X10, but in reality, Apple should always and consistently beat Adobe to the punch.

  • Keith Barkley Level 5 (6,040 points)

    Apple might be much larger than Adobe, but Lightroom is a much larger portion of Adobe's business than Aperture is of Apple's. I am sure *you* want Apple to lose money on Aperture by adding resources to improve raw support response of new cameras, but Apple may not feel that way.

  • Baudouin Struye Level 1 (40 points)

    Patrick, I understand your frustration.  I have an X10 and really would like to be able to use its RAWS files in Aperture also.  But the reality is, when we bought Aperture, Apple told us "Here is a piece of software, here is what it can do right now, and here is how much it costs.  Do you want it or not?"  Nowhere in there did Apple say "And we will make changes to our Raw Converter so it can read every new camera's own version of their proprietary raw implementation within X months". 


    By agreeing to buy Aperture, you agreed to these terms.  There are dozens of new cameras released each year and Apple or Adobe do not get a penny for devoting software resources to reverse engineer every camera companies new little software puzzles.  At least not for the (relatively) minor players in the pro market that Aperture and Lightroom target.  If it's a  small potential user base, they are not going to be in hurry to spend a lot of money on that.  They have very little (if anything) to gain.  How many people are going to buy Aperture because it can read Raw files from the Fuji X10?


    BTW, as far as information of RAW files, you should read this on Wikipedia:


    Among other things they talk about the availability of a standard Raw file fromat (DNG) but most camera makers (apart from Leica, Pentax and a few others) don't want to use it because it would canibalize sales of their own software.


    Oh, btw, Kirby and Frank can explain this much better than I can but, since this thread is about Raw file support, note that in the Apple world, the Raw Converter is done at the OS level.  So it's not really directly an Aperture issue.

  • patrickgarner Level 1 (0 points)

    Thanks for the comments, Baudouin. I do think the issue is a bit more complex than "Apple or Adobe do not get a penny for devoting software resources to reverse engineer every camera companies new little software puzzles..." The reality is that buyers who opt into either Aperture or Lightroom are taking a gamble that the company they opt into will continue to enhance and update their product. The reality is also that Apple and Adobe are competitors, and pros and serious amateurs are  going to be frustrated (that's putting it kindly) when the company they bought into lags severely behind its competitor. That lag  drives Apple users into the arms of, in this case, Adobe.


    For instance, I have been an Apple user for 20 years or more. I purchased Aperture in its first version, and have upgraded repeatedly. I have a photo library on it now containing 17,000+ images. Because Aperture does not yet support the X10, and I am using it for numerous shootings, I have been forced to buy Lightroom. Not surprisingly, it does a good job converting the Fuji RAW/RAF images. My drawn out point though is that if Apple is going to sell to the professional market, they too have an obligation. As you note, "it's a  small potential user base," but that base made a key decision early on and becomes, in effect, highly dependant on Apple to remain competitive. My point in earlier posts is that if Adobe can support new cameras quickly, so can Apple--and my emphasis is that they have an obligation to do so if they want to keep their user base.


    I prefer using Aperture. I'm now using LR for current Fuji shots. I don't like Adobe. I prefer Apple. But I've been forced to go elsewhere if I'm to use an extremely popular camera. (Fuji, btw, has sold 10s of thousands of X10s in the last 5 mths.)


    And as a correction, they do not charge for the RAW conversion software that accompanies their camera, so that's not why they ignore the DNG standard. I too am frustrated that all manufactuers don't use DNG, but they don't.


    Regardless, if Apple is going to sell software for the professional market, they are going to lose some of that "small base" by falling measurably behind Adobe. That's not smart business, and it harms Apple's loyal users.

  • G-FOTO Level 1 (0 points)

    RAW Update 3.10 and stil NO Fuji X10


    I can't express my feelings about Apple for the moment.

  • patrickgarner Level 1 (0 points)

    I too was stunned. There's already buzz on a couple X10 forums. One of the most popular compacts to be released in 2011--literally hundreds of thousands sold to date--and Apple is silent. As I may have noted earlier in this thread, I've recently purchased Lightroom 4 in response. Too bad. I've been an Apple fan boy forever. Not where I wanted to go.

  • G-FOTO Level 1 (0 points)

    I downloaded already the test version of Lightroom from the Adobe site...lets wait for the weekend.

  • chrisfromkenilworth Level 1 (0 points)

    I have had some success by downloading the free Adobe DNG Converter (which I think includes Adobe Camera Raw, and supports the X10), and running that on a directory containing my X10 Raw Files. I converts them into DNGs in a few seconds per file, and these then import nicely into Aperture. There are effectively no raw controls in the DNG Converter, only file selection ad a couple of options.


    It's a bit of a pain because I'm not using referenced images, and only use raw occasionally, so I have to export the raw files, then convert them and then reimport them... but it does work. And I've been pretty happy with the results. The Aperture raw fine tuning controls are there...

  • patrickgarner Level 1 (0 points)

    That's an option, albeit awkward. I can also verify that Lightroom 4 does a slick job with the RAF files.

  • chrisfromkenilworth Level 1 (0 points)

    well, it's awkward becaue I'm not really a raw shooter and choose to have Aperture manage the files. If I shoot in raw and use referenced images, it's not really inconvenient at all. In fact I'm guessing you could automate it with Applescript!

  • Acetone. Level 1 (55 points)

    Baudouin Struye wrote:



    Among other things they talk about the availability of a standard Raw file fromat (DNG) but most camera makers (apart from Leica, Pentax and a few others) don't want to use it because it would canibalize sales of their own software.



    I can't see there being any evidence of that at all, seeing that most give their raw convertors away for free (Canon keep updating and slowly improving Digital Photo Professional)


      I have no idea  how sales of the X10 compare to other cameras, but Apple do seem to have been very slow to added it to their list, yet are pretty fast with things from Canon and Nikon.

  • G-FOTO Level 1 (0 points)

    Nearly 9 months have passed since I started this thread.

    Several times I wrote feedback to Apple.

    But still no joy.


    Come on Apple it can`t be so difficult to call Fuji and ask about the RAF development of the X10 for Aperture!?

  • Berg77 Level 1 (0 points)

    I manage to import RAF files into  Aperture 3.4.4 with the latest digital camera RAW update from Apple (the one including the X20 among others) from my X10 :-)  . All RAW adjustments in aperture seems to work perfect.

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