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Giving up on Lion

So after 2 weeks of battle I am going back to SL.


I have a MBP with NVIDIA cards on it so presumably part of my problems have been down to the NVDIA drivers being wrong - but I can't find out what exact problems that causes.


I also am aware that many years of upgrading OSX has accumulated a lot of stuff in my System folder that restoring from a time machine backup or using migration assistant or whatever doesn't clear out.


So I am installing SL fresh and reinstalling my applications from fresh and not restoring the system from a back up. I hope that, once the NVIDIA issue is sorted out that I can go back to Lion, but in 25 years of owning and working on Macs never had to do this before.....



Tommy Banana

macbook pro, Mac OS X (10.7.2)

Posted on Dec 22, 2011 4:28 AM

Reply
39 replies

Dec 23, 2011 8:48 AM in response to tommybanana

tommybanana wrote:


often 'such threads' get responses which complain about people 'just complaining' and people not posting detailed reports of problems, and such responses usually include some patronising stuff about what the support community is and isn't for.

That about all you can do with them.


if you click on my name and then on tommy banana's stuff you can quite easily find a detailed threaad where I have posted my problems with Lion if you are interested.


Yes. I saw that. You didn't mention any video issues. Your system is so hosed that even Linc gave up and told you to take it into the Apple Store.

I did mark my OP as not being a question to indicate that I wasn't looking for people to help me trouble shoot but I was letting people know what had been happening to me.


Of course, there is a downside to that too. Your post about "what is happening to you" could, in fact, show that all of your problems are self-imposed. Anyone who is looking for confirmation of where problems in Lion might be found should normally look no further than the near side of the keyboard.


In your case, you have a large number of 3rd party hardware drivers and systems extensions. The fact that Lion runs at all is quite impressive. Have you checked all of those extensions for full Lion compatibility? Unlike Snow Leopard, Lion runs the 64-bit kernel by default. That is a significantly different environment for all of your 3rd party system extensions.


Linc's debug tips are also tattling on you. The Finder leaves droppings in directories where you have used it. Your postings indicate that you have used the Finder to make changes in directories where users should not go.


The first thing to do is check all the 3rd party software you have installed and make sure you have the latest version. If you have manually removed any software - ever - you will need to reinstall it and then use an official uninstaller. Repairing permissions would also be a good suggestion.


Unfortunately, the best, most guaranteed solution is to reparition your hard drive and reinstall the operating system from scratch. Your extensive amount of low-level, 3rd party software and user modifications to them are what is making your system unstable. That level of customization cannot be automatically repaired. It would take a few hours of debugging by a competent technician to debug it. The people who would be able to do that level of work are not interested in it. No one at the Apple store can do that. Take your machine back to the bare metal, reinstall the operating system, reinstall the latest version of any Lion-compatible 3rd party software. Finally, migrate your home directory from your backup. Do not migrate any applications or "other" files. That will just perpetuate the problem.


Of course, another alternative is to just stay on these forums and complain about Lion. You are free to do that as well. But now, anyone who reads those complaints can lookup your posting histry and find this reply that shows the cause of your problems and solution to them. The choice is yours.

Dec 23, 2011 3:08 PM in response to softwater

I'm thinking Best Buy, in June, 2011, but I'm not real sure, would have a $79 Apple USB KB w/ numeric pad that looks like the one in the tommybanana picture.


I was surprised and disappointed when I found that this MBP 2.5 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo, 17-inch, Early 2008, doesn't have the key-punch machine numeric function keys below the 789, like my Mid 2006. Oh, well. Hopefully SJ's ghost will give that back to us by the time I get my next MBP. That should fit on a 19" MBP, right? So, move the speakers, already. OK, I'll get a bigger bag, then.


On this one, I taped a paint-sturing stick at the front edge, so I could lay the full KB over the track-pad on this MBP and keep it from sliding all around. I have an old 16:9 17" CRT immediately above my open MBP.


@tommybanana— how did you mark your post as an OP (observation post)? That's what this is @softwater, et. al.

Dec 23, 2011 3:53 PM in response to etresoft

This is not an OP (observational post)!

etresoft wrote:



tommybanana wrote:


I did mark my OP as not being a question to indicate that I wasn't looking for people to help me trouble shoot but I was letting people know what had been happening to me.

Unfortunately, the best, most guaranteed solution is to repartition your hard drive and reinstall the operating system from scratch. Your extensive amount of low-level, 3rd party software and user modifications to them are what is making your system unstable. That level of customization cannot be automatically repaired. It would take a few hours of debugging by a competent technician to debug it. The people who would be able to do that level of work are not interested in it. No one at the Apple store can do that. Take your machine back to the bare metal, reinstall the operating system, reinstall the latest version of any Lion-compatible 3rd party software. Finally, migrate your home directory from your backup. Do not migrate any applications or "other" files. That will just perpetuate the problem.


@etresoft, you've been reading my mail.


If you count Bill Gates' Office as 3rd party, you got me nailed. I've stuck with Office 2002 since it came out. Also my plist has files that I've been collecting since ~1984, when I got my first Fat Mac. Then I've compounded it with a couple clones w/o clean installs. Lion is the first upgrade to complain—and complain it did. I didn't realize it was native 64-bit—that is would seem to be the biggest incompatibility with doing a dirty upgrade. I suspect that SJ is turning over in his grave, watching how this upgrade is boggling the Mac world.


The "Top Genius" at my Apple Store helped me do a smudged reinstall of Lion, I. E., he verified my hard drive overnight, then did a clean install of Lion, before I came in with my Time Machine External Disk and copied my user account folders to a new "Test" account, then newed my old account name. This made my new account adopt the Test account's folders (somehow that I didn't follow). This is when he looked at my Plist's and found some really old stuff there. At that point, he ran off to serve another Genius Bar appointment.


So, I'm still convinced that my user account's Library is major corrupted as seen by Lion. The current show-stopper symptoms are that most of the apps, including bundled apps, will not remember any preferences from one launch to the next.


Where do I go, now? I feel sorry for the red shirts at the Apple Store, so maybe I'll go back after Christmas when the have more time. This saga is the second time I've looked for help at the Apple Store. This first was when this KB died. I did call the APPLE help desk, once a couple years ago.


Any suggestions?

Dec 23, 2011 5:03 PM in response to David Roggendorff

David Roggendorff wrote:


If you count Bill Gates' Office as 3rd party, you got me nailed. I've stuck with Office 2002 since it came out.

Microsoft is definitely 3rd party software. However, it is once of the best-behaved of all the 3rd party Mac software.


Also my plist has files that I've been collecting since ~1984, when I got my first Fat Mac.


Plist files didn't exist until many years later.


Then I've compounded it with a couple clones w/o clean installs. Lion is the first upgrade to complain—and complain it did.

...

Any suggestions?


My first suggestion would be to start your own thread. I don't know if your solution would be any different. The longer you go on an upgraded system, the greater the risk that it will break one day.

Dec 23, 2011 7:05 PM in response to etresoft

@etresoft


You are hitting the nail on the head. I have to admit the way I keep my computer is filthy, and beneath contempt. The way I have been moaning IS arrogant and self centredly blinkered. Someone with your knowledge can, I am sure, look into my console and see a whole bunch of things about my character and the way I conduct my life and feel justified in giving the me telling off I deserve and actually need. I am sure you could have gone a lot further so thanks for your restraint.


You are also right that probably until the end of time anyone else - if they find this thread - will be able to find out the same unpalatable truths about me. It is a good job you (and they) can't also see the outside of my computer - covered in bits of food, dried alcohol, and other stuff impossible to identify..... Thank god....the shame.


You are right - apart from whatever, if any, problems are caused by the NVIDIA drivers - this is all my fault.


I am probably not fit to own a mac with an OS as advanced as Lion in the same way that some people shouldn't own big dogs. It is always the owner and not the dog.


Yet I still - despite accepting all that - blame Apple.


Apple led me on.


First of all I am a creative (I am a musician - well a drummer) and I use a computer for composing and recording mixing and stuff. But I also do, encouraged by Apple all these years - a whole bunch of other things at which I am not at all qualified or trained - web design, graphic design,video editing, flash animation, upgrading my system etc I do all these things in a way that would not bear scrutiny to an expert or someone who teaches college courses in any of these areas, yet I produce what I need to do what I do and make a living. Apple encouraged me to feel I can do all that and also to feel that the Mac was the computer for me to do it on. My focus is on the stuff not the system and I am impatient, unrealistic, and prone to fantastical thinking.


Apple led me on, brazenly seduced me to believe it was the computer for me, a dog anyone can own, especially if they are prone to staying up all night in a pile of empty Red Bull cans, overflowing ashtrays, and discarded KFC buckets during some desperate lunge for a deadline, under time pressure probably entirely of their own making.


Furthermore Apple has supplied a whole series of OS upgrades I could download and run from Software Update, and also the Migration Assistant, and Restore from Backup functionality that has allowed me to carry on living on borrowed technological time, buying into the 'sub-prime' 'junk bond' style delusion that upgrading my OS and moving to a new mac was a one click process anyone can do that was really unlikely to go really wrong. Yes they printed warnings in small print but surely if it was really that dangerous they wouldn't make it so easy to do?


And so I have carried with me the ever increasingly thick and toxic techno sludge as I moved from mac to mac, library to library, as I wantonly installed random and ridiculous 3rd party pieces of software, and never, ever, ever tidied up.


Yet as you say miraculously, and despite the ever increasing dark circles under my and my mac's eyes, and the occassional weird jerking movements, my macs have up until now generally carried on working and so have I and that experience over many years has also lulled me into a false sense of security.


I should say in my defence that I was quite competent on OS7-9 at clearing out troublesome extensions, control panels and preferences, and even on occasion sorting out other people's macs for them. However when OSX arrived it just got so much more complicated in there.


It is now so complicated, that in Lion, Apple wisely hid the Library so that people like me couldn't just go rummaging in there while smoking, drinking a beer, and dropping crumbs.


So yes it is my fault my mac is 'hosed' - or to continue the analogy my dog is biting people and urinating on the carpet - but I would also argue alot of other people are seemingly having similar problems with Lion to me - possibly for similar reasons, and that there are a lot of people who use and abuse their macs in similar (and also probably different) ways to me.


You advice about going back to bare metal etc is fantastic and I will follow it but maybe Apple should have been more forceful in telling me to do that given the leap to the 64 bit kernel thingy.


I finally want to argue the case that this community is just as much for people like me to check out how each other is getting on and making decisions on how to dodge the techno bullets we barely understand and moan, share, and rant and stuff as it is for us to deferentially get help from people with pristine and unsullied Preference folders, unblemished 'back up and clean install' upgrade records going back to 1983, tightly clipped moustaches, nylon trousers, and a deep familiarity of the inner fractal layers of the Console's Inner Wang.


NB I apologise for, and unreservedly withdraw, the moustache and nylon trousers comment - as usual I am getting carried away and making unfounded assumptions.


Anyway I needed to get that off my chest and I thank you for your input and wish you all a great Xmas - including you etresoft.


cheers


Tommy B.


PS Etresoft I just realised that you have 15,840 points and I have...er...cough.......15. Please somebody find this post helpful......

Dec 23, 2011 7:50 PM in response to tommybanana

tommybanana wrote:


You are right - apart from whatever, if any, problems are caused by the NVIDIA drivers - this is all my fault.


I am probably not fit to own a mac with an OS as advanced as Lion in the same way that some people shouldn't own big dogs. It is always the owner and not the dog.


Yet I still - despite accepting all that - blame Apple.

As I mentioned earlier, the fault and blame involved is not related to your computer or its manufacturer, but to this rant thread that you started.


Linc gave you very good suggestions on how to diagnose the problem. Apparently, you even made some progress with those suggestions. Yet now, you are giving up and blaming Apple for some unspecificed NVIDIA bugs. If you are trying to prove me wrong about my categorizing this as a rant thread, you aren't making much progress.


PS Etresoft I just realised that you have 15,840 points and I have...er...cough.......15. Please somebody find this post helpful......


Only the original poster (you in this case) can mark posts as helpful or solved. You can mark your own replies as helpful or solved, but you can't earn any points that way. You would have to find someone else's thread and make helpful comments.

Dec 23, 2011 7:58 PM in response to tommybanana

tommybanana wrote:


@etresoft



You are also right that probably until the end of time anyone else - if they find this thread - will be able to find out the same unpalatable truths about me. It is a good job you (and they) can't also see the outside of my computer - covered in bits of food, dried alcohol, and other stuff impossible to identify..... Thank god....the shame.


I am probably not fit to own a mac with an OS as advanced as Lion in the same way that some people shouldn't own big dogs. It is always the owner and not the dog.


And so I have carried with me the ever increasingly thick and toxic techno sludge as I moved from mac to mac, library to library, as I wantonly installed random and ridiculous 3rd party pieces of software, and never, ever, ever tidied up.


Yet as you say miraculously, and despite the ever increasing dark circles under my and my mac's eyes, and the occassional weird jerking movements, my macs have up until now generally carried on working and so have I and that experience over many years has also lulled me into a false sense of security.


I should say in my defence that I was quite competent on OS7-9 at clearing out troublesome extensions, control panels and preferences, and even on occasion sorting out other people's macs for them. However when OSX arrived it just got so much more complicated in there.


It is now so complicated, that in Lion, Apple wisely hid the Library so that people like me couldn't just go rummaging in there while smoking, drinking a beer, and dropping crumbs.


You advice about going back to bare metal etc is fantastic and I will follow it but maybe Apple should have been more forceful in telling me to do that given the leap to the 64 bit kernel thingy.


I finally want to argue the case that this community is just as much for people like me to check out how each other is getting on and making decisions on how to dodge the techno bullets we barely understand and moan, share, and rant and stuff as it is for us to deferentially get help from people with pristine and unsullied Preference folders, unblemished 'back up and clean install' upgrade records going back to 1983, tightly clipped moustaches, nylon trousers, and a deep familiarity of the inner fractal layers of the Console's Inner Wang.


cheers


Tommy B.



Ha Ha, one of the replies of the year Tommy. Seeking help and getting advice is one thing, getting nothing but a MacSermon is another thing. Well written, witty, comical and held my attention right throught the post. I give you an A+


Have a great Christmas mate and many more years of happy computing.

Dec 23, 2011 8:17 PM in response to etresoft

1) I agree it is a rant thread...if by that you mean non-expert people expressing the emotional frustrations and realities of their digital lives in a cathartic way . Is that a problem?

2) I am not blaming Apple or Linc for the state of my computer or

my cackhanded way of trying to fix my Lion problems.

3) I am grateful for all the help and education from people here including you.

4) I am making the point that alot of people, like me, have seemed to have had a lot

more problems going to lion than before and your info on the 64 nut kernel thing

is probably the reason - ie slob behaviour that in the past didnt have too many bad consequences now have more serious ones - and they could have made the implications of that clearer ie it that you

had to take out all the 3rd party drivers or something.

5) I do reserve the right to Give Up trying to sort out my self inflicte problems with Lion and go back to Snow L. and also post about it here and I am not doing it to get bogus attention or whatever.

6) I also am making the point that people have different relationships with this kind of community and some people want to moan, rant*, or read other people moaning or ranting*.

7) you didn't mention it but I apologise again for the moustache/nylon trouser comment in my previous post if it upset you

8) in the whole 'Apple led me on' stuff in previous post I was trying to be a bit tongue in cheek.

9) still merry Christmas to ya!


best Tommy B


* see definition of rant in point 1

Dec 23, 2011 10:02 PM in response to tommybanana

tommybanana wrote:


1) I agree it is a rant thread...

Then it doesn't belong here according to the terms of use. This is a technical support forum for people looking for solutions to problems they are having with their Apple products. If you are looking for catharasis you will have to find some other site.


I'm a software engineer, not a psychologist. All I can do is provide my best guess at a solution for your technical problems. Anything else is out of scope. It may take a few hours to reinstall everything, but that is your best solution. Review all of your 3rd party software for compatibility issues. Your biggest problem there seems to be with a known issue in Finale that is easily fixed.

Dec 24, 2011 4:09 AM in response to etresoft

Etresoft I would have to respectfully request that if you ever quote my posts again, or the terms of use , that you include the full sentence or phrase when quoting. Your deliberately omitted my phrase "if by that (ie rant) you mean non-experts expressing the emotional realities of their digital lives in a cathartic way. Is that a problem?" and your 'rant gotcha' attempt omitted to mention that the terms of use say "If your Submission contains the phrase “I’m sorry for the rant, but…” you are likely in violation of this policy."


I have never used the phrase "I am sorry for the rant but..." and there was no hint of apology anywhere in my post about my posts rant or non-rantiness.


In addition as I have repeatedly made clear - this thread is not marked as a question and it is AFAIK fully compliant with the Terms of Use by aiming to "help people use Apple products and technologies more effectively" by sharing my real world experience of upgrading to Lion being relatively typical of one common type of user of Mac products, and also offering "constructive comments" and "constructive feedback about product features".


I believe the constructive and helpful element of your contribution to this thread has revealed the 64 bit kernel issue which wasn't clear to me before hand and that has helped me to formulate my upgrade strategy and I thank you for that. I think your own contribution has revealed that the Lion upgrade is one that was likely to have, and indeed has, produced more problems for many people, like me, who have a lot of third party and legacy items in their system.


(BTW I did do a clean install onto a wiped hard drive and then migrated my home folder back in and I am still a bit unclear as to how so much crud got back into my System Library and non-home folder library.)


This thread has also revealed that several people are using NVIDIA macs with Lion with no problems. That is also useful to me and presumably to anyone else in my position,


The main non-technical, off topic 'rant' element in this thread is a dialogue started and maintained by you by complaining about me.


The Terms of Use- now that you have brought them up - requests people to be polite and non-inflammatory and I would ask you to consider the way you have ramped up stuff on this thread by alleging that I am being innapproriate and just posting to "collect lots of "me/too" responses etc etc.


I would ask you to accept that people have different perspectives over what kind of support and information they need amd want from this community, and what defines on and off topic and appropriate comments here. You are entitled to your opinion and to express it, but you have refused to engage with or acknowledge any of the numerous attempts I have made to explain my perspectives back to you and why, to me, the comments and the thread is appropriate.


In addition your persistent non-mention of whether the moustache/nylon trouser comment upset you is making it a much bigger issue than it should have been and I also find your persistent failure to wish me merry xmas back to be impolite.


OK that last paragraph was a joke ( is that allowed?) but there is a serious point here.


Most people build their professional working practice around their mac and decisions like "when to upgrade" and "what risk/benefits are attached to that step" are very important real world issues with potentially serious consequences.


I run a music education business for which I am the 'technically most knowledgeable person in house' responsible for the network and the software/OS policy, and I am an Apple Distinguished Educator and develop education products which have to deal with very non-technical people using Macs ( and PCs) in schools, and also obstructive and illogical IT people who often prevent any kind of postive use of Macs in schools.


People who aren't experts (I mean aren't Level 6 15,000 points experts) have to make real decisions about their use of compuetrs and software in the real world and when they do that issue of 'effective use' means the technical is often indivisible from the practical, emotional, and logistical.


There is a point beyond which you need to know more about the context - emotional, technical, commercial, and personal - before you can decide that you are have the right to judge decisions like me moving back to Snow Leopard - which seems to have offended you so.


For example there are certain 3rd party drivers in my set up that I have no option but to retain as they are needed to use hardware essential to my workflow. Yes I could have spent a few more days producing a stable Lion set up - but potentially not one that I could have done anything with in my studio, and I had to get a video edited and an album mastered.


Anyhow merry xmas to you again and again thanks for the part of your contribution that has been extremely helpful.


Best


Tommy B.

Giving up on Lion

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