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Does Lion solves the window switching order?

I'd almost buy the new OS JUST to get the bothering behavior in my 10.6.8 OS fixed.

Can anybody tell us what's the SUPPOSED behavior?

NO MATTER how you look at it, and what research you did, OUR BRAIN expects consistency and the windows staying WHERE WE LEFT THEM. I'm not talking "physically'. If we wanted to manage physical objects we would rather use paper sheets and would spread them on the floor! I'm talking about data organization. Our brain and every computer puts information in cells/boxes/neurons, and IT SHOULD BE THERE when we look for it.

Switching the order of windows to ease the mess to people SCARED of computers (probably what your research was based on) won't help to US, the ones who actually give computers a fair use.

I think there are 2 kind of people:

1) The ones that are AFRAID of opening new windows, as if they would run out of memory, or who get overwhelmed by the mess

( No wonder why they get overwhelmed! )

2) and we, the ones who actually do something with them. (the open windows).

It's as if you had made the z order of windows a "history" of interaction, so as soon as we "touch" one, a NEW layer/state is made and the others get even further behind. Sometimes I switch browser windows ( I think Chrome depends on your OS for that ) about 20 times and some of the 10 open window are never reached!

Is that fixed?

MacBook Pro, Mac OS X (10.6.8)

Posted on Jan 19, 2012 3:23 AM

49 replies

bluepaua

Level 2

185 points

Jan 21, 2012 2:55 AM in response to applxperience

There seems to be 2 options given the current state of play:

use the keyboard and not the mouse to navigate through the stack of windows
use tabs for those applications (e.g. Chrome) that support tabs

I can see the reason why you want the behaviour you have described, but it may be just as confusing and irritating to those who have accustomed to using the keyboard shortcuts (cmd-tab or cmd-`) to quickly flip back to the previous top level window.

Jan 21, 2012 3:34 AM in response to bluepaua

bluepaua:

Thanks for your willing to help. I think you missed the part where I say I use macs since Mac Plus.

• I DO use keyboard. That's the whole subject of this topic!!! Actually I haven't even mentioned the mouse, because I don't care what happens when you click them. I just want them to cycle in the SAME order, regardless of the z-index, clicked or not… etc.

• Tabs is out of this topic. They need you to think up and watch the number to hit. Not quick at all.
Can you tell what each window has by the 2-3 words in the tab? If you can, I'd like to hire you to go to the casino to count cards, Raimond.

No, it won't be difficult for those who you mentioned.

•Those for whom the current system EVEN worked is because they are using 2-3 windows. No brainer to switch those few, even if presented in random order!

•What do you mean with "those have accustomed to using the keyboard shortcuts? Please read the first post, at least.

bluepaua

Level 2

185 points

Jan 21, 2012 3:39 AM in response to applxperience

How is using Cmd-shift-[ and Cmd-shift-] to cycle though the tabs different from using cmd-tab or cmd-` to cycle through windows?

thomas_r.

Level 7

31,989 points

Jan 21, 2012 5:10 AM in response to applxperience

You keep reminding us ho long you've been using Macs like that makes any difference. It is irrelevant. If it weren't, then I win, since I've been using them since the 128K, so I'd drop that if I were you.

I frequently use well more than 2-3 windows, and still your ideas make no sense to me. But as I've said, my opinion makes no difference. Tell Apple, using the link I gave you earlier, and then let's please end this ridiculous discussion.

Barney-15E

Level 10

112,560 points

Jan 21, 2012 7:08 AM in response to applxperience

Ok, I think I've finally figured out what you want, and it doesn't make any sense.

The system was changed quite a while back to switch windows and apps based on last used.

This was to make it quicker to get back to the last one used. The theory being that the normal behavior is to compare two documents/windows. If in your mind they should keep the order, then with 10 windows open, you'd have to type the command at least five times to swap between the two windows you are working on.

Given that, I doubt that any suggestion you make to Apple will be implemented as it was de-implemented. It makes more sense to allow toggling back and forth between the two "currently" primary windows than the other option.

I looked through Secrets to see if I could find a command to change the behavior, but couldn't find one.

Jan 21, 2012 10:56 PM in response to thomas_r.

Thomas, I reminded my experience with Macs to the other guy, who assumed this is my first mac and "I should learn to use it" instead of testing what I meant.

I'm glad you use more than 2-3 windows.

Did you test my scenario?
what do you think?
have you ever noticed the many key-strokes (not clicks, as I probably mistakenly said before?) you need to find a open document on a stack smaller than the clicks you've cycled through?
If not,
- haven't you worked on documents secuentially?
- Why do you keep many windows open then?

I will post it on the feature request as soon as I get an answer from the developers forum to make sure it's not chrome overriding/messing the OS behavior.

Barney:

What you said makes no sense. First of all, your example in which you think you'd need 5 keystrokes to get some doc, is already happening! Currently the history is REPEATING the same doc. So if you history is 1,2,3,2,1,2,3,2,1,2,1,2,4,5, you'd need 14 keystrokes to get doc 5! And you only have 5 docs! Do you think that's right?

Now, if the behavior was as I say, and the "only" purpose of the weird current behavior is "to help to switch the last 2 documents you worked with", as you said, then:

That'd mean it was thought for working on a few docs, – if you follow my instructions you'll notice the current behavior doesn't work for working witn many docs– and it's time to change for the new times where people DOES work with many docs.
Not needed 5 shortcuts to get the other doc: If just one half of my proposal was implemented, you could get the "other" (last) document you worked with with just one stroke. Just keep the history but remove duplicates! PLUS you would need only 5 key-strokes to get your 5th doc, not 14.
You could just use something like the command-1 and command-2, since they'll ALWAYS relate to the the same documents. If you only cared about the last opened docs, command-1, 2, 3… would make more sense for a history than for documents which lose its relation to the key!
E.g.: Last, 2nd to last, 3rd, 4th… they will always be Command-1, comand-2, 3, 4…
Instead, Cycling backwards and forward will NOT take you always to the same document, because depending on whether you "touched it" or not, the behavior changes.
A THIRD shortcut could be used to just cycle through the last 2 docs. I understand as you said "the theory behind the current behavior…" and that doesn't work for the new trend expose was created for: people having many docs open (losing fear for open windows). Of course, if the tool under my fingers was made to work primarily with the few docs in the front, I'd also be afraid of having more open docs than I can deal with.
You are wron

I think the reason why documents don't keep a relation z-index/cycling-order is because ALL of them should be "moved", like Time Machine, and that was a memory challenge then, but not now.

Can you think any other way to accomplish consistency in the "expected" order when cycling docs other than "I'll figure it out when I see it"? without losing the "switch between foremost" docs? (seems the "history" is not needed, as far as you can switch 2 docs quickly, right?)

Thanks for your discussion guys. Knowing other's opinion helps me to figure out what I need. In this post I learned that history could be KEPT, but dopping duplicates, so total_cycle_keystrokes = total_docs. (as if you really were browsing peper sheets, not jesus fish 😉)

thomas_r.

Level 7

31,989 points

Jan 22, 2012 4:06 AM in response to applxperience

haven't you worked on documents secuentially?

Why do you keep many windows open then?

I don't think that I have ever, in all my 28 years of using a windowed operating system, worked on more than 2 documents sequentially in the manner that you describe. I simply cannot imagine the circumstance that would make that necessary. I have needed to make a few changes sequentially to documents (usually image files), but that simply involved opening them, making the changes to each and then closing it.

So why do I keep many windows open? Because web development involves many different things. For example, I will be working on a .php file, and will have several other .php files open for reference to the functions or other code contained in them. I will also usually have a browser window open with some PHP documentation. I also may have a .css file or two open. I also may have some MySQL documentation and phpMyAdmin open in a couple other tabs in my browser. I arrange everything on the screen so that I can see the ones I'm using most frequently together, and usually use either Exposé or a simple click (if I can see the window) to quickly switch between windows.

If I need to switch back and forth frequently between two windows that fill the screen, then I will use command-` or command-tab (depending on context). In that circumstance, I have only ever needed to switch between two windows, and I absolutely, 100% expect command-` to give me the next window in the stack, not whatever the next window in the stack was ten minutes ago before I moved things around.

In my experience with user support, what I do is far more sophisticated than the average user, but on the same lines as what they do. They may have several spreadsheets open for reference with QuickBooks while doing billing. They may have a calendar app and a web browser and a customer database while doing scheduling. I've never seen any end-user need to repeatedly cycle through a virtual "stack" of documents as you describe, touching each one in turn and then cycling back to the beginning to start over. Honestly, if you need to repeatedly cycle through 5 documents sequentially, you're doing something that would be better done by a machine. Figure out how to automate that task.

Currently the history is REPEATING the same doc. So if you history is 1,2,3,2,1,2,3,2,1,2,1,2,4,5, you'd need 14 keystrokes to get doc 5! And you only have 5 docs! Do you think that's right?

That is not how it works. (Of course, you keep bringing Chrome tabs into this, which has nothing whatsoever to do with window-cycling behavior on the Mac. Perhaps Chrome does tabs like that, but I don't know, and I'm not addressing that.)

Command-` cycles through the open windows IN ORDER. There is no history. If you have 5 open windows, you will need to press command-` precisely four times to reach the one in the back. If you stop and do something with one of the windows, then the next time you use command-`, you must deal with the current order, not with whatever order the windows had at some unknown time in the past. That is the way it should work, IMHO.

Barney-15E

Level 10

112,560 points

Jan 22, 2012 6:26 AM in response to applxperience

Barney:

What you said makes no sense. First of all, your example in which you think you'd need 5 keystrokes to get some doc, is already happening! Currently the history is REPEATING the same doc. So if you history is 1,2,3,2,1,2,3,2,1,2,1,2,4,5, you'd need 14 keystrokes to get doc 5! And you only have 5 docs! Do you think that's right?

Now, if the behavior was as I say, and the "only" purpose of the weird current behavior is "to help to switch the last 2 documents you worked with", as you said, then:

It doesn't keep a "history" except the last window used becomes the second window in the z-order. If there are 5 documents and you start with z-order 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, with window 1 selected, then click on 3, the new order becomes 3, 1, 5, 4, 2. There is not repeating of any window in the order. If you then click on another window, that will become frontmost, the last one you were on before the click becomes the second, and the others are ordered by history of use. There are never more steps than there are documents. They're just ordered by usage. There aren't any duplicates.

If you've got an app that is doing something other than that, please let us know what that is so we can test it.

Barney-15E

Level 10

112,560 points

Jan 22, 2012 6:51 AM in response to Barney-15E

After some more testing, I did find something that may be causing the confusion you see.

If you switch to another app, then back to the one you had multiple windows on, the z-order gets reset based on the two most recent windows. So, while you had already set a z-order based on previous usage, leaving the app and returning will reset that order based on your last two used windows.

Jan 23, 2012 7:30 AM in response to thomas_r.

Thomas:

I keep mentioning command-`

Thtat's cycling docs. You should know.

I never mentioned command-tab, and I only mentioned command-1,2,3 never as the problem. I also try to make clear that when I say "window".

It seems you are not reading everything. I can't waste my time quoting my own text just to show you where I said so.

If you still have doubts: I'm totally talking about DOCUMENT WINDOWS. NOT tabs. Same application's.

My partner is an SEO, and he researches websites. Takes notes of keyword usage… he noticed the same, and EVERY person who works with many doc windows (same app) can tell you. Search coding in forums and the most organized way to keep track of the ones you read is tab-opening all first, and then start closing. Interesting pages from tabs go to a new window… like a tree. I'm not the only one who needs to have a panorama of the whole variety of info before to write/code/print.

Even just looking for good games, I've seen children opening several games and keep opening new windows while others load. There you have more reasons for my "weird" windows usage (like 3rd time I give examples, really)

Otherwise it's a pain to visually track or remember which ones you already open. even more when ajax pages won't take you to page 4 of results but always page 1. MANY things are made faster is you make them sequentially.

About your request for me to tell you if an app is doing something other than your version of "how it is" I assume you didn't test it, that you are pretending I haven't said anything different to that yet, so this next sentence I'm writing it pulling my hair:

'YES I'M SAYING IT'S DIFFERENT".

Thanks for writing. Now, please before to write again and getting in the middle of someone who could actually want to test it, please stop writing. thanks. You are making me to write too much and visitors get scared when too many words say answer nothing.

thomas_r.

Level 7

31,989 points

Jan 23, 2012 7:59 AM in response to applxperience

I'm totally talking about DOCUMENT WINDOWS. NOT tabs.

Yes, we know. We get it. It seems that you're not getting what WE are saying, though.

Now, please before to write again and getting in the middle of someone who could actually want to test it, please stop writing. thanks. You are making me to write too much and visitors get scared when too many words say answer nothing.

As more than one people on this thread have said, we HAVE tested what you described, and we don't see the same things or we don't see it as an error when we do see the same thing. However, I have given up on trying to get through to you, so I will grant your wish and stop responding here. This discussion was pointless from the start, so I don't know exactly why I've continued responding as long as I have.

Jan 23, 2012 8:07 AM in response to Barney-15E

Barney, Last night before to write, FIRST I tested and it happened as I tell you. About 7 docs open (chrome) typing command-` cycled about 2-3 times on a few docs (the last I worked in) and finally I got the others. It took me certainly more than 7 keystrokes.

I'll make a video so you can see it.

It could be when jump to another app. I always have 6-12 apps open. Clicking windows is not my concern. There's no discussion on that. We all want the clicked window to go to the front, don't you think?

Barney-15E

Level 10

112,560 points

Jan 23, 2012 5:58 PM in response to applxperience

Well, if you don't click and just cmd-`, then the order never changes, unless you change apps, then the order changes based on last two windows. Ignore the word "click" and substitute in "any method that would switch to a document window that is not the next or previous document."

Now, I don't use Chrome, so maybe that is the problem. Perhaps it uses some odd doc switching behavior.

Safari and TextEdit works as I describe.

I have no idea what your point was with the SEO paragraph.

Asside from posting on Apple's feedback page, how you want it to work is completely irrelevant. It doesn't work that way. We have tried to explain how it is supposed to work; if you are not seeing that behavior, I have no idea what is wrong. If it is Chrome, try the similar behavior in Safari and see what it looks like.

Jan 23, 2012 11:40 PM in response to Barney-15E

Since I tried the issue today and it didn't happened (I'll keep trying it for the video) I'll ask this cautiously:

When you say "the order never changes", are you referring to the "z-index" or the "Cycling order"?

Because, as far as I noticed the intended not-so-bad behavior, the order DOES change every time you "release" the command key (after cycling) and the next doc is not the next in row but the second from top. That's one of the ways you can use to "shuffle" cards. That means the behavior changes, using the same keystrokes.

Some opine "the order" doesn't change, and others say "the switching-docs-on-top behavior" doesn't change, but none realizes both are combined in the same shortcut and at some point the brain just can't agilize the process because it doesn't know what to expect. Yes, it knows it can expect the next z-index, (and you can skip it 'cause you already worked with it) but after that?

Of course if the chrome-issue is just a bug I can live with the current behavior. At least I don't lose docs in the back.

About the seo paragraph: Any "research work" makes you keep many sources open and you can't start writing until you organize all the info in your head. My partner examine the keywords and html code for different competitors of our client and that means same-look source code windows… but it could be anything else: researching meical texts, quoting sources, gathering info for lists, searching games to download, downloading lyrics (not all are in proper english)…, etc.

That makes you go secuentially between all the docs. In my case, learning PHP I try different approaches found online and I copy-paste many times, and read the instructions, and it's not enough to "exposé" the windows, since I can't read in there. In short: I don't think 51% works with 2-3 docs. ( mean "work", like when you want to maximize the time. If you are playing with your fancy computer, it doesn't matter.

Qyzylqum

Level 1

4 points

Jun 24, 2012 8:32 PM in response to applxperience

Not sure this is going to help with the problem because of the way it is stated. After installing Lion I was ready to get rid of it. After spending time with Apple support and finding somebody who knew something about Lion I got the answer I wanted or needed. If I understand the problem correctly it has to do with windows showing up that are not wanted or that you cannot sort though and make any sense out of what you are doing. If that is the case then hopefully this will help. If the windows pile up on each other like a stack of papers and you don't want that to happen then go to the System Preferences then chose Mouse. Next chose More Gestures and remove the check marks from any or all the options that are causing you to have a pile up of pages that are the problem. This will make it so you have to open new windows seperately of in tab form but gets rid of all the open windows. I sure wish I knew what Apple was thinging when they put this option in as it makes no sense unless you are doing search work for a paper in school etc. Hope this helps.

Does Lion solves the window switching order?