Time Machine Frequent "Start New Backup"

drm31078 wrote:

. . .

Applecare asks, "do you use time capsule?"...I say "no"...then they say "we don't support any other NAS"

Yeah, they need to use different wording. 😟 What that really means is, the folks at AppleCare don't have any 3rd-party NASs, so they can't replicate the problem. It means AppleCare can't help, but it doesn't mean Apple doesn't support it. (That's compliclated by the fact that many NASs don't support Time Machine at all; some that worked on Leopard never got updated to work on Snow Leopard, and some that worked on Snow Leopard never got updated for Lion.)

I figured that out when having a problem with OSX and a U.P.S. system -- got the same "we" don't support it. It took some questioning to figure out that's because they don't have any U.P.S. systems). So I submitted a bug report (see link above) and after a couple of weeks, got a very detailed, comprehensive answer.

AppleCare will help those who are having problems with a Time Capsule.

Moreover, they are aware of these forums because I asked the Applecare person about it and she said that they have reviewed the threads. However, she said that most people are not using "supported" configurations.

They may do some data-mining, but they don't (and can't) use the information here to actually resolve anything. There's rarely much, if any detail, much less logs, configuration, etc. Many (perhaps most) of the posts here don't specify what version of OSX is being used, or what they're backing-up to. There's not a whole lot they can do with that. (And, again, many are using unsupported destinations -- not just NASs that don't fully comply, but USB drives on Airports.)

RJBismark wrote:

. . .

Don't minimize and make excuses for an obvious flaw.

I'm not minimizing it, but I'm not assuming it's a widespread problem, either. None of us knows how many people are making wireless backups with Time Machine to supported destinations, much less how many are having this problem.

Most, clearly, aren't having it, or there would be many thousands of posts here (as there were with the group of early-2008 Time Capsules that failed with bad capacitors).

The point is, if you're having this problem, try the things suggested here and elsewhere; in many cases, that will fix it.

If not, report it to Apple (and if your're using a NAS, the maker) and use a more reliable method until/unless they fix it.

Pondini very nice points,

Here is my take on part of this issue

As previously said a large portion of the NAS users are not represented in this forum and it does seem like it, most people are asking the NAS manufacturers for assistance which in turn should be provided by Nettalk who make the netatalk, a version of AFP for Linux (which is the OS almost all NAS's run).

On my side, I am running a ReadyNAS 4 and have been having the same issue as mentioned above every month with a MBA. They guys at ReadyNAS point to Apple's robust error checking that was implemented after 10.7 as the cause for the error.

With respect to wireless error, as far as i understand there is quite a good error-checking system in place which prevents almost all errors from occurring. Running DD-WRT, I was able to track the TX errors over a period of time and there were none detected by the router.

I am beginning to think that the issue as someone mentioned is that when one "closes the lid" on a laptop, TM does not properly finalize the backup.

Assuming that is the issue, I'm surprised that one can not "resurrect a backup" by just removing the "bad" increment and keeping all of the good parts, as the sparse bundle is just a set of folders with possibly special properties (on the whole)

Kolyan wrote:

. . .

I am begining to think that the issue as someone mentioned is that when one "closes the lid" on a laptop, TM does not properly finalize the backup.

If you put a Mac to sleep, it will cancel the backup (but close it out properly), and "catch up" on the next one. That "catch up" will take somewhat longer, but works fine.

However, if a Mac crashes, or the power is forced off, or the destination (external HD, Time Capsule, or NAS) is abruptly disconnected or powered-off, directory damage can occur. Often, Disk Utility can fix that, but not always. On an internal or external HD, a heavy-duty 3rd-party disk repair app like DiskWarrior can sometimes fix things that Disk Utility can't, but other times it's hopeless.

Assuming that is the issue, I'm surprised that one can not "ressurect a backup" by just removing the "bad" incroment and keeping all of the good parts, as the sparse bundle is just a set of folders with possibly special properties (on the whole)

Yes, sometimes Disk Utility can repair the damage, but the structure is quite complex -- A backup folder actually consists of many "hard links" to files and folders, most of which also have hard links in many other backup folders. Thus, it's like a database -- if there's damage anywhere, the whole thing is suspect.

See the Hard Links section of How Time Machine works its Magic for an overview.

I've popped into to this thread a few times over the last couple of months and after my latest new backup message just popped-up thought it was time to post.

I don't have any theories but hopefully my set-up might help the discussion: I'm hard-wired on a 1Gb CAT 6 connection through a Cisco Linksys e4200 to a Western Digital My Book Live and running Snow Leopard 10.6.8 on a June 2010 2.66 GHz Intel Core i5 27" iMac. I've detailed the network connection to demonstrate that I think I've got a solid fat data pipe.

Since it last happened I've been very careful to make sure that the backup is not running before I put the Mac to sleep but this time it's only been 8 days since it last created a new backup. Although I only have 3 data points they imply it's getting worse as the previous new backup lasted 2 months.

I'm fairly relaxed as I also backup all our important stuff to Crash Plan but Time Machine was just easy for local backups. I'm now going to have consider another method.

What kind of Mac do you have? If it's a desktop model, by far the fastest and most reliable way to back up is to an external HD.

If not, try a different app, such as CarbonCopyCloner, over the same setup. Set it to run hourly, just like Time Machine, and see if you have any better results. That will tend to either implicate or exonerate the hardware / path.

Have noticed same problems... time machine backup on a synology nas ( macbook via Wifi, nas wired to router cisco E4200)... I have to create frequently new backups...

Hope this can be fixed by apple ?

greetz

Hello again

Since I have upgraded from Snow Leopard to Lion I haven't had the problem.

I'm having the same problem - Time machine saying it has completed a verification and needs to start a new backup.

This started just after I upgraded to Lion. I am backing up from a macbook pro wirelessly or over ethernet (problems either way) to an LG NAS (N2B1). I have sent the NAS back to LG and they replaced the disks - but didn't help.

My wife upgraded her macbook pro to Lion and the same problems started. This really has to be a Lion related problem.

People are saying report it to apple because they don't monitor these forums. Well that's ridiculous - surely they should keep an eye on trends in these forums in order to improve their products!!! Anyway why should we pay £35 to tell Apple they have a product fault - and anyway, this isn't the sort of problem they would be able to sort out over the phone - particularly since there are external NAS drives involved.

Come on Apple - this is a real problem!

simon909 wrote:

. . .

My wife upgraded her macbook pro to Lion and the same problems started. This really has to be a Lion related problem.

No. Corruption of network TM backups has happened, on occasion, since Time Machine was first released, with Leopard. The automatic verification that puts up that message when an uncorrectable problem is found started with 10.6.4. It occurs on both Lion and Snow Leopard; and to various destinations (Time Capsules, shared drives on other Macs, NASs).

It's quite possible that Lion is more critical, or your NAS doesn't work as well with Lion as it did with Snow Leopard -- in fact, most NASs didn't work with Lion at all when it was released, but needed firmware updates.

People are saying report it to apple because they don't monitor these forums. Well that's ridiculous - surely they should keep an eye on trends in these forums in order to improve their products!!!

You may think it's ridiculous, but it's true. These forums are huge; posts are scattered all over; and don't have much of the kind of detail Apple would need. Apple does provide several ways to report problems, from the Genius Bar to feedback to the Bug Reporter to AppleCare (see Reporting a Problem to Apple for details).

this isn't the sort of problem they would be able to sort out over the phone - particularly since there are external NAS drives involved.

Partially correct. AppleCare doesn't have them, so can't replicate problems with them, but can escalate problems to the engineers.

Come on Apple - this is a real problem!

Not to everyone; not even to a majority. Anything done over a network is less reliable; especially if you do any backups wirelessly, interference becomes a real possibility.

Have you tried the things in the pink box in #C13 of Time Machine - Troubleshooting?

i am happy to find this thread since i am having the same troubles and really thought i am the only one :

synology nas 211j hardwired with gbit to imac from 2011 running lion 10.7.4

my mbp with leopard was running without any problems the tm backups.

i get the "have to create a new backup" message about every three weeks....

i tried to change tm to different folders on my nas but this didnt help.

today i used an older tm folder and have to see that the previous backupset claimed as corrupt by tm this time was accepted without any problems. after indexing of the backupset i have again access to another old backupset.

very strange because tm hesitated to accept this backupset before telling me it has to create a new one....

>Not to everyone; not even to a majority. Anything done over a network is less reliable; especially if you do any >backups wirelessly, interference becomes a real possibility.

i randomly found this thread and i guess there are some more people having this issue. at least i know another macguy using timemachine with this problem....also hardwired.

not everyone but i think more people as we think off 😉

in my company i am doing backups with windows-server systems over fibrechannel and gigabit flawlessly.

networks are realiabel as long as you use stable connections. dependedlessly if hardwired or wifi.

and even in the case of connectionproblems proper programming can handle this in a way without "killing" a whole backupset.

so i agree that there are some cirumstances in lion making tm less realiable than in leopard before....

I'm having a similar problem, with Time Machine declaring that I needed to do a fresh back up from scratch a few days after the last time I had to do this.

I'm using a 3rd party NAS (specifically a Buffalo LinkStation Live) connected over wireless by a Time Capsule (which doesn't belong to me, hence why I'm not using it to back up).

It seems unlikely to me that wireless problems might have caused this issue, though I've not ruled it out. But my NAS has an automatic power off feature which never used to work with my Mac until an update a little while back. I only started using it recently, since I used to sit right next to my NAS and it was much easier to turn it on manually, so I was wondering if there's a possibility this automatic power off feature could be causing the problem?

It's not quite the same as just yanking the power out the back because the NAS takes its time to shut itself down properly, but it seems quite possible that it might shut itself down the moment I close my MacBook lid, meaning that if a back up was happening at the time, it might turn off before Time Machine has prepared itself to go to sleep.

Does this seem likely? Is anyone else with a Buffalo LinkStation having similar problems with the automatic power off?

burglarbill wrote:

. . .

But my NAS has an automatic power off feature . . . I was wondering if there's a possibility this automatic power off feature could be causing the problem?

Yes, that's entirely possible.

I don't have a NAS, but do recall a post not too long ago where that seemed to be the cause. I don't recall whether it was the same model as yours, though.

That would be rather hard to find via a search here, but might be worth a try.

Thanks very much for your quick response! I think I'll tread very carefully and try to make sure that the NAS doesn't have an excuse to shut down halfway through a back up. If it happens again, then I may well be forced to control the power manually.

I ran a quick search and didn't find anything, but I might look around some Buffalo forums/support pages and see if anyone else is having a similar issue.