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Havok Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
hey everyone i have a problem that me bieng a beginner mac person i just cant solve, i have a PowerBook G3 300mhz 192MG RAM 8 GB HD that came with 8.6 performed a clean install of OS X 10.1.3 few days ago everything whent perfectly until the next day when i turned it on it just whent to the gray screen with a flashing folder with a question mark, i tried all the normal cures resetting the PRAM and ect.. but no go , thinking this was maybe a bug i performed a clean install of 10.1.3 again and updated it to the latest with the software update last night. I got up this morning to find the very same problem again. i have no clue what to do from here any suggestions?

PowerBook M4753 300mhz/192RAM/8GB HD/DVDROM/14.1, Mac OS X (10.1.x)
  • jpl Level 7 Level 7 (28,285 points)

    If you do not have a charged, working main battery, and you disconnect the power adapter and/or turn off power to the power adapter, the internal rechargeable backup battery will run flat...this may be corrupting the power manager.

    Here is how the internal backup battery works:

    If the above is the case, leave the 'book powered. If you leave it powered but still have the problem, try resetting the power manager, then starting.
  • Havok Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    my question with that would be is there anyway to recovery my install of OS X or do i have to re-install again?
  • jpl Level 7 Level 7 (28,285 points)

    You should not have to reinstall the OS if the powerbook is shut down properly and then the power adapter is disconnected or powered off. You should be able to perform a power manager reset (powerbook off) to straighten things out.

    If you start to the flashing '?', first try a 'command(Apple)-ctrl-power button' to force restart the powerbook. If no success, shut down the powerbook, then try the power manager reset. If you have a flashing '?', you should be able to shut down by pressing the power button - a dialogue box should come up with the option to shut down - press the 'return' key to do so.
  • Havok Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    well i did the power manager reset and the system still boots the flashing "?" the battery in it may be bad but since i havent unplugged the powerbbok from ac power i think it still should have solved the problem, im going to order a battery but is there anyway i can get the powerbook to boot with the bad batt? when its boots up to the flashing "?" it doesnts respond to anything it will shut its self off after a minute or still fairly new to MAC and not yet having a solid undersatnding of how the hardware talks to the softawre this is nerveracking.
  • Havok Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    basicaly is there a way to get the powerbook to boot to the install thats already on it?
  • jpl Level 7 Level 7 (28,285 points)

    It is unusual that leaving the power adapter connected at all times still presents a flashing '?'.

    - Once running, can you perform a restart without problems?

    - Can you sleep/wake the 'book without problems?

    - If you shut down, then restart, do you always get the flashing '?' ?

    - If you wish, test your internal backup battery by following these instructions:

    - Did the 'book come with any Classic MacOS 8.1 > 9.x CDs? If so, boot to the CD > Utilities folder > launch Drive Setup > run Test Disk. This can reveal if you possibly have a problem with bad blocks or other issues. When Drive Setup is running, you can open Drive Setup Help from the menu bar. There is also a way to force an IDE HD to reallocate/spare bad blocks...go to Initialization Options > select 'write all zeroes' or 'zero all data' > select HFS/MacOS Extended Format > run, then Test Disk again.
  • Havok Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    well here is so far what i have done & Understood:

    1- Upgraded from 8.6 to 10.1.3 with no problems
    2- The PowerBook was unplugged overnight it boots to the flashing"?"
    3- Re-Install & Updating of 10.1.3 upgraded to 10.1.5 with out any problems
    4- at time of installtion and re-installation the powerbook was rebooted several time without problems
    5- seems anytime the powerbook is left unplugged overnight it boots to the flashing"?"
    6- This problem did not occur with 8.6 , it had been running perfectly until install of 10.1.3
    7- Powerbook will respond to reboot commands with the flashing "?" displayed
    8- Powerbook will boot from CD with no problems
    9- Power Manager reset was performed along with PRAM reset
    10- as far as i know the install on the HD of OS X is good but the powerboot just isnt seeing it for some reason

    So how can i get the powerbook to see the install so it can boot?
  • Havok Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    the powerbook will NOT boot to the HD at all but when i installed OS X it had no problems with anything , i cant get the book running unless i re-install the OS at this point. So at first no problems but now i couldnt say i cant get it to boot the OS to find out
  • jpl Level 7 Level 7 (28,285 points)

    I am running out of ideas, but two suggestions...

    - Try resetting Open Firmware:

    Boot into Open Firmware by holding down the 'Command-Option-O-F' keys from a cold start while the chime is being played. You will see a command-line screen...enter these commands:

    1. At the Open Firmware prompt, type: reset-nvram
    2. Press Return.
    3. At the Open Firmware prompt, type: reset-all
    4. Press Return.
    0 > reset-nvram
    Press Return
    0 > reset-all
    Press Return

    The reset-all command should cause the computer to restart. If this occurs, you have successfully reset the Open Firmware settings.

    - The other suggestion is more of a comment on how the Wallstreet and only the Wallstreet, at least in the powerbook line, can have a problem with any version of OSX affecting the power manager. Some Wallstreets will start to a black display and/or wake to a black display; PRAM or power manager resets will not correct the problem. The only fix is a startup to a pre-OSX System (OS 8.1-9.2.2) if installed on the HD or to a CD...this corrects the problem with the power manager. I have never seen an explanation of what is disturbed by OSX nor how booting to "Classic" fixes it.

    Of course, you are not starting to a black display but I just thought this might be helpful in the future.

    If your powerbook runs properly after installing OSX plus will continue to start up to OSX as long as a hot power adapter is always connected, you may have to buy a working main battery so you can disconnect the power adapter and become mobile...the main battery will provide the same protection as does the power adapter.
  • Havok Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    ok well i tryed the open firmware fix, it didnt help

    I however was curios last night on what the problems was, was is hardware that just happened to occur when i installed OS X or was it an OS X problem that most MAC people swear isnt the case

    so i tested this , this way:

    1- i placed the restore CD for the powerbook in and formatted the HD into 2 partitions of 4GB
    2- i installed 8.6 to the 2nd partition and after installation rebooted 3 times without pronlems
    3- i think booted from the OS X CD and installed 10.1.3 on the 1st parition at the beginning of the drive
    4- after install of OS X i rebooted 3 times without any problems
    5- i unplugged the powerbook and removed the battery which is dead anyway and waited untill this morning roughly about 8 hours
    the powerbook had a default startup disk of OS X
    it will not boot to OS X now and defaultlty boots into 8.6 without even a dialog prompt.

    so i have to assume by this test that this is an OS X mess up and not any fault of the laptop?
  • jpl Level 7 Level 7 (28,285 points)

    That was a good test on your part and am glad you had the MacOS 8.6 CD with which to test.

    I can only answer your question in this way...OSX can be a problem on the Wallstreet in the way I spoke of earlier, nor does it appear that you have a hardware problem (except the dead backup battery) since Classic seems to run fine. I don't know if Apple made any changes to later versions of OSX which might mitigate this issue but 10.1.x was still an early release.

    I also have a Wallstreet running 10.4.4 (via XPostFacto) and 9.2.2 and it seems to run just fine. However, I just tried booting into Open Firmware and booting to my OSX 10.1 CD...I was unsuccessful with both although I have been successful in the past. I did not pursue this by resetting PRAM and power manager but I will in the future. Also, when installing Jaguar 10.2 from CD, I was never ever to reboot to the just-installed 10.2 on the always started back up to the CD. My only solution was to pop open the CD tray after shutting down or during restart. So the Wallstreet is the least supported powerbook and this is partly or mostly due to Apple not wanting to optimize OSX on this "Old World ROM" machine. The following powerbook called the Lombard introduced New World ROM (ROM-in-RAM) where a lot of the hard code in the ROM chip was moved to software which loads at startup in a file called MacOS ROM and found in the System Folder.

    You may wish to do this:

    - Reformat your HD as one volume booting to your MacOS 8.6 CD and using the Drive Setup utility; by default, the MacOS 8.6 HD Driver is installed. Now install OS 8.6 (just the basic System Folder if you are not going to run any Classic apps) and then test performance.

    - Download and replace your OS 8.6 Startup Disk control panel with the Startup Disk control panel from OS 9.2.1:

    Just go to your System Folder > Control Panels and drag the old Startup Disk c.p. to the Trash, then drag the new one into the Control Panels folder, close all windows and restart. It should work just fine with OS 8.6 although Apple is discussing using 9.x and OSX.

    - Now install your OSX on the same volume and test.

    By having both OS 8.6 and 10.1.5 on the same volume, you maximize your HD space for OSX; if the Wallstreet will only cold-start to OS 8.6, you should be able to select 10.1.5 in the Startup Disk control panel and restart to OSX...this should make life easier.

    If you wish, you can format with OSX's Disk Utility instead of 8.6's Drive Setup...they both will do the same job. However, I do not recall if the 10.1 CD has the option of installing the MacOS HD Driver when reformatting; if not, use Drive Setup.

    Having both Classic and OSX on the same volume (no partition) is perfectly acceptable; installing OSX first, then Classic, or vice versa is perfectly acceptable. But I would do 8.6 first, install the new control panel, then install OSX.

    You could also partition with the first 7GB for OSX and the remainder for OS 8.6; this would allow you to always have a bootable partition in the event OSX went down. You can install a basic 8.6 System Folder (no apps) using approx. 150MB.
  • Havok Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    well i thank you for all the help but the powerbook still will not boot OS X and sadly without access to newer software this powerbook is pretty much useless to me

    This was my 1st attempt at switching to MAC for my everyday computing needs that as we can see did not fare well , i will however keep my iMac just for playing around with OS X but i was really hoping to get this powerbook up and running to depend on , i really love this powerbook but like i said without access to newer software im going to be forced to get rid of it in favor of a Windows based laptop

    I would buy a new mac laptop but they are kinda out of my price range at the moment

    again thanks for all the help.
  • jpl Level 7 Level 7 (28,285 points)

    I am sorry this did not work out nor can I explain why.

    If you knew any Mac users that might have a Jaguar/10.2 CD, you could "test drive" it and see if newer software helps.
  • jpl Level 7 Level 7 (28,285 points)

    If you still have the Wallstreet, I have been doing some reading and ran across a post where a user had the same problem as turned out to be marginal RAM in his case; OSX is more sensitive to RAM than Classic.

    If you wished to spend a few dollars, buy a new 256MB module to replace your 128 and 64; you can either buy a low-profile for the bottom slot or a standard height for the top slot. The 256 for this model does require RAM made for it due to the Wallstreet's memory controller; here is an example:
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