iPad2 GPS

All information I have found inidcates geo-tagging on WiFi-only systems is accomplished through reverse lookup of IP to physical address via a geo-location db. This is not so in my case. Given this, how does it know my precise (within feet far offset from where the street actually is)?

Since yours is wifi only, the only possible way it could get your location is from wifi. I've 'heard' that Apple has it's own database of wifi locations, i.e. from other devices that have GPS that are connected to that wifi. I suspect this is how.

Thor HoG wrote:

Not sure why I bother with these public forums - this is always the type of response I see. But let's try again. My iPad2 "Find my iPad" and "Map" show my precise physical location. All I have is WiFi. It is not because of geo-tagging of my IP - this has been tested and verified by Comcast.

All information I have found inidcates geo-tagging on WiFi-only systems is accomplished through reverse lookup of IP to physical address via a geo-location db. This is not so in my case. Given this, how does it know my precise (within feet far offset from where the street actually is)?

Because your wifi router location is in the Apple location database.

If someone with an iPhone drives by and picks up your wifi signal, it will be reported to Apple (via crowd sourcing).

Then iDevices will use this database to display the location.

See this -> http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/04/27Apple-Q-A-on-Location-Data.html

My WiFi is completely closed, so there is no way anyone could get my external IP via war driving or WiFi proximity. Even if they could, they wouldn't know my exact address.

I called Apple, and they verified everything said here regarding WiFi geolocation. I called Comcast again, and they re-verified my static IP was not mapped to my service address.

All this said, logic would dictate that Comcast IS somehow giving out that info. No one else has my physical address. I don't even get mail here. I don't see how it could be any other way. :\

They don't need your IP. They need to MAC address of the wifi router.

They would need the MAC of the external, wired interface of the router which they could not get. That method of Mac-to-address harvesting is not as viable as some would have you think. The only way that would work would be to get on an open network, and even then the ARP entry would point to the internal interface. And they still wouldn't have my exact address. The way I see it is everyone agrees WiFi must use geolocation, and Comcast is the only entity with my physical address. It must be them. I'll do a network trace and see if that tells me anything.

Thor HoG wrote:

They would need the MAC of the external, wired interface of the router which they could not get.

Right now, as I'm typing this, I am looking at the network names, MAC addresses and vendor names of all of my neighbors' routers. Since each neighbor chose a recognizable network name, it's easy for me to determine who is who. Kevin and Wanda are using Apple Airports, Wayne an Abacom, Ron and Zeph are both using Westells. There are three other neighbors that apparently have their routers turned off so I can't get a reading (I've seen them before). If I was interested, I could locate them tonight. I'm using a free utility to get this information.

Honestly, you're beating this to death. You've been given good information and you keep coming back with "But..."

Edit: April just came on line with a Linksys.

Your wifi only iPad is getting your location from the Apple database which has your wifi router location/MAC address.

-> http://techcrunch.com/2010/07/29/apple-location/

You misunderstand, Philly_Phan.

You are seeing the internal MAC address on the WiFi side of the router. In order to get that, you have to already be at the physical address, obviously.

I'm not sure what information you think is 'good,' as the "all you need is the MAC address" statement is patently false. No matter what internal, wireless MAC address you get, you will not be able to map that to someone's physical address via some external means. When I do an IP lookup, it has nothing to do with my internal MAC address, or even my external MAC address for that matter as that would only be available via ARP on other systems on the local segment.

I'm not sure what your comment even has to do with the original question. It has no relevence.

And for the record, I don't keep coming back with "but," I'm simply clarifying how some of the suggestions are not technically correct in order to provide the poster with correct information (like I've done here).

I've already stated that the only logical answer is that Comcast is lying to me, as technically, everyone has verifyed that WiFi location on the iPad uses only IP-based geolocation. What Kevin and Wanda are using is irrelevent.

But thanks. (There's your real "but.")

Thor HoG wrote:

What Kevin and Wanda are using is irrelevent.

No, that's not true. Last year, when my location was off by a hundred yards, we were bored and did some experimentation. We confirmed that my alleged location would change depending on which routers were powered and which ones were not. We first danced my location all aound the neighborhood and then were actually able to predict the alleged location depending on which units we powered.

Be that as it may, I'm outa here.

Let me rephrase - What Wanda and Kevin are using is irrelevant as it relates to one determining another’s physical address via some sort of IP lookup. Even if someone went through and harvested all the MAC addresses of you and your neighbors and posted it, I would not be able to somehow look that up based on your IP address (or anything else) unless I somehow got the MAC address of the WiFi side of your router. The only way to get that would to be in your neighborhood already, in which case I obviously don’t need your address.

Sure, it’s fun to bounce around and use any number of tools to see if you can triangulate local information based on signal, MAC and all that, but it doesn’t have anything to do with this particular question.

That’s what I meant. I’m doing a sniff now just to make sure, then I’m calling Comcast. When I get to the bottom of this, I’ll post back so others looking for this information (like I was) can at least see what we’ve discussed.

Thor HoG wrote:

I'm not sure what information you think is 'good,' as the "all you need is the MAC address" statement is patently false. No matter what internal, wireless MAC address you get, you will not be able to map that to someone's physical address via some external means.

Sure you can.

My iPhone sees your wifi router and the MAC address.

My iPhone knows where I am located (via GPS) . It sends this info to Apple.

When your wifi only iPad asks Apple "when am I?" it says "since you are connected to this wifi MAC address, which we have mapped with an iPhone, your location is x,y,z"

I see what you are saying, but that's not actually what happens. One, you would have to connect to my WiFi. You can't do that. If something is open, you'll see the traffic. If not, that is all encrypted. Regardless, you would only see the MAC of the internal interface of the access point. So let's say that happened - you connect to my WiFi and send the MAC of my access point's internal interface to Apple.

Then what? Any connection I make to Apple or anyone else via my internet connection would only give them my IP. The actual MAC of my external interface is obviously different, and is only used in ARP tables for other systems on the local segment of the network. If Apple somehow checked the MAC address for the connection by inspecting the actual IP layer, they would get the MAC of their local router.

Nothing you iPad could send would allow anyone to locate me based on my Internet connection. Only if my internal MAC address was someone given out could that work.

Noting this has nothing to do with the orginal question, I just wanted to make sure foks understood how that part works.

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Thor HoG wrote:

I see what you are saying, but that's not actually what happens. One, you would have to connect to my WiFi.

No need to actaully connect to the wif at all.

My iPhone simply need to see your wifi which gets me the MAC address (via the BSSID) of your wifi router. I don't need to connect to your wifi.

My iPhone can now tell Apple that a wifi hotspot with MAC address of AA:BB:CC:11:22:33 is located at X,Y,Z.

Now your iPad location services tell Apple, "I am connected to this wifi router with the MAC address of AA:BB:CC:11:22:33".

Apple tells your iPad, "You are located at X, Y, Z"

Well, the iPhone would say "I'm at this location, and connected to a router with an internal mac address of aa:bb:cc:11:22:33.

Let's say that's true. Now what? Let's say you were standing outside my house and you connected and did exactly that.

Tell me how that MAC address gets somewhere to where apple can look it up in a database to tell me where I am after the fact?

What?

Thor HoG wrote:

Well, the iPhone would say "I'm at this location, and connected to a router with an internal mac address of aa:bb:cc:11:22:33.

Let's say that's true. Now what?

Now your iPad can show your correct geographical location via Apple location services because it knows the MAC address and geographical location of the wifi router you are connected to.