transco
Level 1 (10 points)

Q: Roaming with Multiple AE's connected to router.

I can't find info on  my particular wireless layout.  I have three Airport Extremes connected to the LAN.  Each AE has a unique static IP LAN address.  NAT and DHCP is handled by the router.  What I am trying to do is set up a roaming wireless network.  I saw a thread on doing this with one AE connected to the WAN and the other AE's connected to it (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4260), but this would be difficult to implement here.  I seem to remember reading that what I am trying to do can be done by setting each AE to 'Create a Wireless Network', and giving each the same Wireless Network Name, and password, which is what I am doing now.  This works, but is extremely slow.  Is there a better way to implement roaming, using my current AE wiring scheme; i.e. with each AE connect to the router?

Posted on Feb 5, 2012 6:17 PM

by Gino Cerullo,Solvedanswer
Gino Cerullo Gino Cerullo
Level 4 (1,456 points)
A:

I found some addtional info that clears up some concepts. There is stuff in there that even I wasn't aware of. For example the difference between the capabilities of the old 'WDS' networks and the new wirelessly 'Extended' networks. They are not the same and do not have the same capabilities. I was under the impression that when 'Extending' a network with the new 802.11n capable routers it was forming a WDS as I understood it with the old 802.11g routers. That is not exactly true; there is a difference.

 

The old WDS networks had the capabilities of a main, relay and remote router. The new Extended networks only have the capabilities of a main and a remote. Of course all of this is moot if your are joining the routers together with ethernet, not something everyone can do, and you also benefit using ethernet because there is no perfromance hit on the wireless connections.

 

Wi-Fi base stations: Extending the range of your wireless network by adding additional Wi-Fi base stations

 

Wi-Fi base stations: Setting up and configuring an extended wireless network (802.11n)

Posted on Feb 7, 2012 11:29 AM

Close
transco

Q: Roaming with Multiple AE's connected to router.

  • All replies
  • Helpful answers

Page 1 Next

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Feb 5, 2012 6:41 PM in response to transco
    Level 10 (105,448 points)
    Wireless
    Feb 5, 2012 6:41 PM in response to transco

    Each AirPort Extreme must connect to the LAN using Ethernet. If each Extreme can connect back to the main router, or a main "switch", that is ideal.

     

    Configure each Extreme to "Create wireless network" using the same wireless network name, same wireless security setting and same wireless password. Set the Channel to Automatic and use the same Radio Mode for all devices.

     

    In addition, it is critical that each Extreme be configured in Bridge Mode to work correctly on the network. Here, I assume that the Extremes are connecting back to another "main" router.

     

    If you need step by step, post back to let us know what operating system you are using on your Mac and what version of AirPort Utility you are using.

  • by Gino Cerullo,

    Gino Cerullo Gino Cerullo Feb 5, 2012 6:34 PM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 4 (1,456 points)
    Feb 5, 2012 6:34 PM in response to Bob Timmons

    What Bob stated is correct. The key is to connect the AirPort Extremes to your Main router using Ethernet and to set them in Bridged mode.

     

    If your main router was also an AirPort Extreme then you could do this all wirelessly using the instructions I posted in the thread linked to below.

     

    https://discussions.apple.com/message/17475933#17475933

  • by transco,

    transco transco Feb 5, 2012 8:00 PM in response to Bob Timmons
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Feb 5, 2012 8:00 PM in response to Bob Timmons

    This is exactly what I am doing.  I went back over all the settings of all three AE's and they are set this way.  Perhaps it is working as well as possible.  My wife  uses Skype a lot and walks around the house during her calls.  She says that the signal has to get very weak (i.e. with a lot of dropouts and lags) before her iPhone switches to another AE. 

     

    Two of the AE's are 1st gen and set to '802.11N (802.11b/g/n compatible) and the third is a 2nd gen set to '802.11a/n - 802.11 b/g/n (automatic). My other choice is '802.11a/n - 802.11 b/g/n'.  Which do you thinik would be the better choice in this case?  2.4GHz channels are set to automatic and 5Ghz is disabled.

     

    The main router is not an Airport Extreme.

  • by Gino Cerullo,

    Gino Cerullo Gino Cerullo Feb 5, 2012 8:11 PM in response to transco
    Level 4 (1,456 points)
    Feb 5, 2012 8:11 PM in response to transco

    Because you are connecting the AirPorts to a non AirPort router it is not forming a proper Wireless Distribution System (WDS). That is your primary problem. With a proper WDS the hand-off from router to router should be smoother as a person roams around the house.

     

    What is happening now is that the wireless signal that the user first connects to has to get to the point that it is so weak that it drops before the device tries to connect to a new router with a stronger signal.

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Feb 5, 2012 8:31 PM in response to transco
    Level 10 (105,448 points)
    Wireless
    Feb 5, 2012 8:31 PM in response to transco

    She says that the signal has to get very weak (i.e. with a lot of dropouts and lags) before her iPhone switches to another AE.

    I am assuming that your "main" router is not producing a wireless signal at all....just the AirPort Extremes.....correct?

     

    iPhones (and iPads) will not "switch" access points quickly at all in a roaming network.....like a computer does. It's a "nature of the beast" for iPhones and iPads.

     

    These devices use a completely different type of operating system...and antenna. Not much you can do to help things here.

     

    and the third is a 2nd gen set to '802.11a/n - 802.11 b/g/n (automatic). My other choice is '802.11a/n - 802.11 b/g/n'

    Except for the "automatic", these settings appear to be the same.

     

    Open up AirPort Utility, select the newer dual band AirPort Extreme, and click Manual Setup

    Click the Wireless tab below the row of icons

    Hold down the option key on your Mac while you click on Radio Mode

     

    Try the following on the newer Extreme:

     

    802.11n only ( 5 GHz) --- 802.11 b/g/n

     

    Might help....might not.

  • by transco,

    transco transco Feb 5, 2012 9:55 PM in response to Gino Cerullo
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Feb 5, 2012 9:55 PM in response to Gino Cerullo

    I could move one of the AE's to the wiring closet and connect the drops going to the other AE's to it, but would still need my current router for VPN, NAT assignments (virtual servers), logging, etc.  Basically I'd need two 'main' routers, my current one and the AE, and somehow divide the LAN addresses between them, as well as shutting down one of the DHCP servers.  From what you say, the iPhone and iPad still aren't going to work the way I want them to, so its hardly worth messing with.

     

    I made the change you suggested, but haven't had a chance to try it yet.

  • by transco,

    transco transco Feb 6, 2012 5:34 AM in response to transco
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Feb 6, 2012 5:34 AM in response to transco

    I moved an AE to the network closet and connected the WAN port to the LAN switch and the drops from the other two AE's to the LAN ports. The configuration was now: Modem -> Router -> Switch -> Main AE -> Remote AE's.  After a few seconds, the Airport Utility graphic morphed from showing three AE's connected to the Internet to showing two of the AE's connected to the third AE and the third AE connected to the internet.    I walked around the house, watching the signal strength indicator on the iPhone.  I was getting a consistant 3 'bars' throughout. Certainly better that the way it used to be.  Later today I'll have my wife do a 'walk and talk' test.

  • by Bob Timmons,

    Bob Timmons Bob Timmons Feb 6, 2012 5:50 AM in response to transco
    Level 10 (105,448 points)
    Wireless
    Feb 6, 2012 5:50 AM in response to transco

    The configuration was now: Modem -> Router -> Switch -> Main AE -> Remote AE's

    This should work well as long as all of the AirPorts are in Bridge Mode.

     

    Suggest that you re-check this for each device as sometimes the setting will change if you are doing other things to other settings.

  • by Gino Cerullo,

    Gino Cerullo Gino Cerullo Feb 6, 2012 8:41 AM in response to transco
    Level 4 (1,456 points)
    Feb 6, 2012 8:41 AM in response to transco

    I think I understand why you want to continue to use the other non-Airport router but have you thought of eliminating it and splitting the services it performs between an AirPort router and a proper server.

     

    The AirPort router can handle, when connected directly to the Internet, NAT and DHCP as well as a few other things. You can assign a default host to point to a server running Mac OS X Server or a Linux server to handle VPN, logging (Syslog from the main Airport router) and any other server duty you require.

     

    This way you can set up the AirPort routers as a proper WDS.

  • by transco,

    transco transco Feb 6, 2012 12:55 PM in response to Gino Cerullo
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Feb 6, 2012 12:55 PM in response to Gino Cerullo

    I thought I'd give your suggestion a try, but I'm in trouble.  Network is down and I can't figure out where I went wrong.  Can you give me a link for manual setup of an airport extreme wds network from scratch?  I've managed to get wireless working for the main AE which is connected directly to the cable modem, but that's about it.  I have a static WAN address (actually I have 5, but that's another story).  The terminology is a bit different than I am use to. On the 'Internet Settings'  I assume 'IP address' is the static WAN address of the AE and 'Router Address' is the WAN  gateway address.  Where do I give the AE a LAN gateway address?  Half the stuff on my network uses static addressing so I need to establish a LAN gateway address. 

     

    I've set the 'main' AE to provide both NAT and DHCP.  I plugged the other two AE's into it, leaving them in bridge mode.  Airport utility incorretly shows all three AE's connected directly to the internet.  Lastly, the Airport Utility shows the internet status as disconnected, which also isn't true. 

  • by transco,

    transco transco Feb 6, 2012 2:00 PM in response to transco
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Feb 6, 2012 2:00 PM in response to transco

    Well still no luck finding out how to set the LAN gateway address.  For now I'll go with the default (xxx.xxx.xxx.1), which at least get things running again.  Unfortunately this means I'll have to go back to each box using static addressing and change the gateway address.  I also haven't figured out how to enable UPnP when using the AE as  the router. 

  • by Gino Cerullo,

    Gino Cerullo Gino Cerullo Feb 6, 2012 2:11 PM in response to transco
    Level 4 (1,456 points)
    Feb 6, 2012 2:11 PM in response to transco

    I thought I'd give your suggestion a try, but I'm in trouble.  Network is down and I can't figure out where I went wrong.  Can you give me a link for manual setup of an airport extreme wds network from scratch?

     

    I don't have such a link. A Google search can possible peace together all the info you need. Apple does provides guides in PDF format though. Try the link below.

     

    http://manuals.info.apple.com/en_US/Apple_AirPort_Networks_Early2009.pdf

     

    The newer 802.11n routers running the latest firmware don't use the WDS terminology anymore. They just use 'Create a wireless network' for the main router and 'Extend a wireless network' for the routers that connect to the main router if you are doing it all wirelessly.

     

    See this link for screen shots: https://discussions.apple.com/message/17475933#17475933

     

    I've managed to get wireless working for the main AE which is connected directly to the cable modem, but that's about it.  I have a static WAN address (actually I have 5, but that's another story).  The terminology is a bit different than I am use to. On the 'Internet Settings'  I assume 'IP address' is the static WAN address of the AE and 'Router Address' is the WAN  gateway address.  Where do I give the AE a LAN gateway address?  Half the stuff on my network uses static addressing so I need to establish a LAN gateway address.

     

    You have a small subnet and static addresses. Nice! I used to have one of those.

     

    You should be aware that Apple's AirPort routers are designed for a single static IP address at most. They are residential routers, not meant for a business setup as your service appears to be. If you can live with only using one of the five addresses you have available then the AirPort router will work for you. You can designate one of your LAN addresses as the default route for use with a server.

     

    If you require being able to use more than one of the static addresses you have available to create static routes to servers on your LAN then you'll need a business class router that can do Multi-NAT. Maybe the router you were using is more suited to this.

     

    I've set the 'main' AE to provide both NAT and DHCP.  I plugged the other two AE's into it, leaving them in bridge mode.  Airport utility incorretly shows all three AE's connected directly to the internet.  Lastly, the Airport Utility shows the internet status as disconnected, which also isn't true.

  • by Gino Cerullo,

    Gino Cerullo Gino Cerullo Feb 6, 2012 2:16 PM in response to transco
    Level 4 (1,456 points)
    Feb 6, 2012 2:16 PM in response to transco

    If you want, contact me using iChat and maybe I can help you solve your configuration problem.

     

    You can reach me at:

     

    MobileMe/iCloud/AIM: ginocerullo<at>me.com

    Jabber/XMPP/GoogleTalk: gcerullo<at>pixelpointstudios.com

  • by transco,

    transco transco Feb 6, 2012 4:37 PM in response to Gino Cerullo
    Level 1 (10 points)
    Feb 6, 2012 4:37 PM in response to Gino Cerullo

    Thanks for the offer.  Before I waste any more of your time, I'll pour over the documentation you referenced to see what I can come up with.  As it is now, the network is up and running, but 'roaming' is even worse than before.  The signal must drop to zero 'bars' before it switches AE's.  Once it apparently has locked onto the nearest AE it will work for a while, then, without moving an inch, the signal will drop back to zero, apparently loosing the nearby AE, then several seconds later it will reestablish connection.  This happens with (2) iPhone 4's, an iPhone 3, and a first gen iPad so I doubt it's the iOS device's problem.

     

    One note on the documentation, what I've seen so far has been based on earlier rev's of the Airport Utility and earlier AE firmware.   I'm having trouble finding equivalent settings with the new versions.  It might be worth while going back a rev, at least until the problems are solved.

Page 1 Next