Previous 1 2 3 Next 31 Replies Latest reply: Apr 30, 2012 2:13 PM by Ian R. Brown
Ian R. Brown Level 6 Level 6 (18,545 points)

My Panasonic SD800, likeall AVCHD cams, shoots  Progressive as PsF.

 

FCP X incorrectly recognises it as 1080i  so I opened the Settings View and selectedField Dominance Override: Progressive.

 

The Basic and Extended Views still had it listed as 1080i until I quit and rlaunched FCP X.

 

I then created a Progressive project and put the clip in whereupon a brown rendering line appeared above and took over twice the time of the clip to render. (A new Mac would do it in less time than the length of the clip).

 

The same thing occurred when I created a new project and set its Video Properties to be based on the first video clip.

 

So why does a progressive clip need rendering when placed in a progressive project? (I am using the clip natively as AVCHD/H.264)

 

Incidentally, I am no more impressed with progressive than I was 4 years ago.

 

I cannot see any quality benefits but do notice an irritating jitter on motion.

 

Probably if I stuck to making videos of stills it would be satifactory but video cameras are made for filming movement!


iMac, Mac OS X (10.6.8), FCE 4 + FCS 3 . . . Little Knowledge, Many Opinions.
  • salty777 Level 3 Level 3 (540 points)

    Ian, those are the instructions from that link you posted the other day. I followed them too and at my end the end result looks worse than just leaving it as "auto", which is a bit disappointing! I'm doing something wrong somewhere.... I've binned this whole "PF" thing and am using either 60i or 24P (true P!) now.

     

    It does render, and the only thing I can think that it is doing is re-combining the two fields, because they've been "segmented".... how this is different to de-interlacing is beyone me!

     

    I'm still experimenting, and getting more confused with HD by the day.....

  • Ian R. Brown Level 6 Level 6 (18,545 points)

    Thanks for confirming that the PsF clips need rendering even after jumping through those hoops.

     

    I think that deinterlacing just chucks away one of the fields.

     

    You are therefore looking at an image sized 1920x540 instead of 1080.

     

    This will degrade the image and sounds terrible but in real life I can't see any difference.

     

    I have just been grabbing a few frames to make still photos from my interlaced footage.

     

    I had to deinterlace them in Photoshop but even under close examination the picture looked just as detailed.

     

    This was shot from about 200 feet at the back of a theatre using the Intelligent Auto setting at 1080i

     

    The lighting etc. was not conducive to good results. It's just a straight screen grab deinterlaced in PS.

     

    Click on it to enlarge.

     

    v.jpg

     

    I notice that the forum has squeezed it down to about 60% of the full size and introduced a bit of aliasing.

     

    Message was edited by: Ian R. Brown

  • salty777 Level 3 Level 3 (540 points)

    I thought de-interlacing combine two fields (odd lines and even lines) into one frame?

     

    Nice picture by the way.... you must be pleased with your camera!

  • Harmonica_Lessons Level 1 Level 1 (15 points)

    Ian,

     

    This is not a new issue, but it usually doesn't get answered correctly. There is a definite problem with PsF files coming from Canon, Panasonic, and some other camcorders. It doesn't seem to be an issue with DSLRs.

     

    Take a look at this post from some months back. If you read the provideocoalition(dot)com links you will uncover the full story much better than I could ever explain it-

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3584352?tstart=90

     

    As I said in that previous post, I broke down and bought ClipWrap and now the 1080 PF30 files are read correctly by FCPX.

     

    Good luck,

    Dave

  • Ian R. Brown Level 6 Level 6 (18,545 points)

    Thanks Dave.

     

    I know that PsFs are not a new issue as I discovered it 4 years ago when I bought my Canon HV20 HDV tape camera.

     

    At that time I didn't know about malignant and benign PsFs, my problem was simply that not only did PsF not display the promised improvement to the quality of my films, it actually created a less smooth depiction of motion than normal interlaced footage.

     

    I tested it for a while but as the only difference appeared to be an increased jitter, I cut my losses and continued using 1080i.

     

    I will be giving ClipWrap a test but even if it "cures" the recognition problem, it is unlikely to effect an improvement to the motion quality, so unless a miracle happens I will probably be using interlaced from now on.

     

    Incidentally I notice in your thread that Tom considers the problem of incorrect recognition to be Canon related. As it affects my SD800 which has Panasonic's most advanced consumer technology, I think we can assume it is a universal problem.

     

    Regarding my concerns over jitter, page 61 of the Panasonic manual, when describing the operation of Digital Cinema mode adds the following footnote but not in bold type:-

     

    * The images may not appear smooth.

     

    I think we can take that as official confirmation that PsF footage does not depict motion as well as interlaced.

     

    Message was edited by: Ian R. Brown

  • Harmonica_Lessons Level 1 Level 1 (15 points)

    Ian,

    Ian R. Brown wrote:

     

    Incidentally I notice in your thread that Tom considers the problem of incorrect recognition to be Canon related. As it affects my SD800 which has Panasonic's most advanced consumer technology, I think we can assume it is a universal problem.

     

    Regarding my concerns over jitter, page 61 of the Panasonic manual, when describing the operation of Digital Cinema mode adds the following footnote but not in bold type:-

     

    * The images may not appear smooth.

     

    That's a real drag about the jitter. But, I hope the ClipWrap solution helps you out with the PsF bug. Colin at Divergent Media seems to be a great guy and has been very helpful to me. Aside from the bug issue, I'm happy now with ClipWrap that I can re-name all my MTS files before I get to FCPX and also delete the junk files I will never use without worry of destroying the file structure.

     

    I don't get by these Apple forums too much any more (I've moved over to the Creative Cow and FCP.co forums), but I know you've been a great resource for the posters here for quite some time. I do check in every month or two to see if someone specifically has the PsF problem. Hopefully now, there's a couple of people that can help with this particular issue.

     

    "Incidentally I notice in your thread that Tom considers the problem of incorrect recognition to be Canon related."

    Yes, Tom does not seem to be a big fan of Canon, but I have had decent luck with Canon and started with the GL1 and FCP 4.5 many years back. As a non-pro, I've been very happy with my HF S100 Vixia HD camcorder. For what I paid for it, it's worked out nicely (especially since this PsF silliness has been straightened out).

     

    Dave

  • Ian R. Brown Level 6 Level 6 (18,545 points)

    I'm afraid I have bad news Dave.

     

    I shot some video in Panasonic's Digital Cinema mode which is supposed to be 25p (PsF).

     

    The files were then dropped into ClipWrap and Re-wrapped.

     

    On importing them into FCP X they were recognised as 1080i in the Inspector and on dropping them into a 1080p Project they had brown render lines above them.

     

    So unless I am doing something wrong, ClipWrap does not get round the FCP X bug.

     

    I hadn't got the latest version of ClipWrap so I downloaded the 2.5.0 trial, but that was exactly the same.

  • Ian R. Brown Level 6 Level 6 (18,545 points)

    Fearing I may have done something wrong I re-read the ClipWrap/PsF article again and noted that it was recommended to rewrap the AVCHD folder.

     

    I had been rewrapping just the MTS files, so I dropped the AVCHD folder into ClipWrap but the new files were still recognised as 1080i by FCP X.

     

    I then went a stage further and dropped the whole CAM_SD folder into CW but the result was the same.

     

    Furthermore, whichever of the 3 methods I used, the results were the same.  Even after altering them to Progressive in the Inspector, shutting and relaunching FCP X to make them recognised as 1080p, once they went into the timeline a brown render line appeared above them.

     

    So CW doesn't appear to have any beneficial effect with my Panasonic PsFs.

  • Harmonica_Lessons Level 1 Level 1 (15 points)

    Well that *****. Ian, go to the ClipWrap website and email Colin and tell him exactly what you wrote here. If you send him example files, he will likely come up with a fix.

     

    By the way, it's not just an issue with FCP X. From the original article, the same issue shows up in FC Studio (legacy) and also Adobe Premiere Pro 5.5.

     

    Good luck with this, I'll be curious to see how it turns out.

     

    Dave

     

    (By the way, just for grins, did you happen to try the Method 1 notated in my original post with the double import?)

  • Harmonica_Lessons Level 1 Level 1 (15 points)

    Ian R. Brown wrote:

     

    Fearing I may have done something wrong I re-read the ClipWrap/PsF article again and noted that it was recommended to rewrap the AVCHD folder.

    Ian,

     

    I've always just wrapped the files myself. It's possible that you might lose some metadata that way, but I don't really know (or care to much for my workflow). You may want to ask Colin this as well.

     

    Dave

  • Colin Mcfadden Level 2 Level 2 (160 points)

    Hey All - There isn't a standard for PSF in AVCHD, so we need to reverse engineer and add support to ClipWrap for individual models (or potentially brands/lines).  If you drop us a line at support@divergentmedia.com, we can usually help out.  What's super awesome is if you can supply a PSF and a non-PSF sample MTS from the same camera.

     

    Hope that helps.  Oh also, if anyone is coming to NAB next week, come say hi!  We're in SL14010.

     

    -Colin

    divergent media, inc

  • Ian R. Brown Level 6 Level 6 (18,545 points)

    Hi Colin, I can email you a couple of clips but as MTS files are around 2MB per second would just a couple of seconds each of Interlaced and PsF be enough?

     

    Would it have to be a clip with movement or just something static?

     

    My camera is the Panasonic SD800 (just superseded) using Panasonic's top of the range consumer technology so I assume that all Panasonic produced PsFs will be the same.

  • Ian R. Brown Level 6 Level 6 (18,545 points)

    Dave, I tried your double-import technique but there was no change in behaviour.

     

    The Inspector recognised the file as 1080i and when I dropped it into a 1080p project I once again got the brown render line.

     

    The only way I can get the PsFs to work "properly" is to put them into a 1080i project.

     

    I must say that I feel that PsF is a con to fool people who think there is something magical about progressive footage.

     

    In the brief tests I did back in 2008 with Canon HV20 HDV (tape) PsFs and also the current Panasonic AVCHD PsFs I have never detected any improvement whatsoever.

     

    In fact the reverse has been true. The PsF footage has not appeared to be as good, though that could possibly be due to slight discrepancies in my testing.

     

    These findings hold true whether I view the raw footage straight from the camera connected to my 40" Sony HDTV or when used on my 27" iMac in FCP X.

     

    So from what I can see, there is absolutely no reason to use PsF as it gives no improvement over Interlaced and just creates a load of time-wasting heartache.

  • Ian R. Brown Level 6 Level 6 (18,545 points)

    Re my comments about PsFs being a con, I often feel that my life is a re-run of the The King's New Suit of Clothes as I have frequently found myself disagreeing with generally held beliefs in all aspects of life, not just photography and video.

     

    Often my contentions have proven correct, but only after several years, when everyone involved has forgotten what I claimed in the first place!

     

    A prophet is never recognised in his own time. (Apologies to Matthew 13:57)

     

    A typical example was when I was describing a particular idiosyncracy/fault in a brand of  SLRs  to a famous Fleet Street photographer/journalist, Victor Blackman, back in the 1970s.

     

    He and many others said that I was mistaken and there was no such problem, but a few years later he wrote an article about said cameras concerning the fault, which he passed off as his own!

     

    I felt like saying, "I told you so", but eventually resisted the temptation.

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