Is there any logical reason Apple can't provide the same update for 10.5 users?

You all make light of ds store's commentary, but I believe they are right on the money. Seriously folks, if you have any heart for those who can't afford to upgrade past 10.5.8, please post feedback or to Apple's bugreporter. Many are stuck on PowerPC, simply because of financial reasons, or software that just doesn't work well in Rosetta or have an equivalent title in 10.7 or Windows.

a brody wrote:

You all make light of ds store's commentary, but I believe they are right on the money.

My main problem with his commentary is he pulls numbers out of thin air & talks in vague generalities that don't mean much. For instance, is it true that Leopard is "in major circulation" & if so what exactly does that mean? Is a pie chart of OS X version distribution based on what the servers of an Indian/U.S. online advertising business with ads on a tiny fraction of all web pages on the Internet even remotely accurate?

It isn't "right on the money." It is poorly researched, strongly biased speculation.

Beyond that, it isn't that I don't care about users that for whatever reason are "stuck" on an older OS version. All the Macs I use regularly are four years old & the others older still. I'm retired, living on a very restricted budget, & I'm well aware that it won't be long before I'm facing the same problems as these users.

But that is no excuse for wishful thinking or ignoring the realities of the situation. If nothing else, look at the huge differences in the code bases of the OS versions capable of supporting PPC Macs vs. the newer ones. Or look at best guess or even wild guess numbers for how many users are using the older versions. And take a good look at the relative performance of the older vs. newer hardware.

It's all well & good to speculate about what one thinks Apple "should" do, but it is a pointless waste of time & effort if it simply ignores what is practical from both a business & technical standpoint. Personally, I think most users understand & accept this, if somewhat grudgingly. For better or worse, computer technology advances amazing quickly & it's powered by new sales. I doubt any amount of feedback to anybody will change that but you are welcome to try.

The more feedback people give, the better a chance might happen that Apple will see the light of day and help those in need. If one pretends that everyone needs to progress with the times, then the tipping point will never be reached in the feedback column. Apple is probably closer to having the resources necessary than any other company. So the question becomes, can we give Apple the necessary tipping point? If we just sit and ignore that others might need it, watch the day come when Macs with 10.8 being released and no one with 10.6 gets a security update. Apple has historically only patched the security of the current and the previous operating system. With 10.8 slated for this summer, that day may be sooner than we think. Then Rosetta users will really be left out in the cold. As it is now PowerPC users are. Apple's saying the minimum for iTunes and the iPad and iPhone now being 10.5 gives many PowerPC users a false sense of security thinking their hardware is still somewhat supported. Until they find Java suddenly goes crazy, and nothing is sacred. I'm just trying to see from the other point of view. And I'm believe it or not, not questioning Apple policy here. I'm just saying users need to provide feedback in the right feedback links that they are dependent on old technologies. These forum just help users see when their assumptions are false. In these harsh economic times, it is helpful to know when they are, and what to do about it.

a brody wrote:

So the question becomes, can we give Apple the necessary tipping point?

Realistically, I think the best we can hope for is a longer support cycle for the OS versions currently supported (but for how long is anybody's guess). It seems extremely unlikely that Apple would retroactively extend that to any OS for which support has already ended, especially regarding code that would run on PowerPC Macs well enough to make the effort worthwhile for anybody.

I'm just saying users need to provide feedback in the right feedback links that they are dependent on old technologies.

I agree 100% with that. Old technologies still can be quite useful but it is important to know about their limitations, especially regarding security issues. We can do a lot about that, even without Apple's help.

Well, I decided to waste some more time and sent some feedback. Speakng of tipping points, it felt silly trying to tip a see-saw level with a pebble when there's a two ton boulder on the seat at the other end. I hardly think there will be enough pebbles to do the job, even given five more lifetimes.

I don't see the point of submitting a bug report. It's not a bug and if you want to be certain a suggestion will be completely ignored, I would think that's the way to do it.

Here's what I wrote if anyone wants to use it, improve it or adapt it.

Please start supporting and continuing support for older OS versions. There is no good reason to drop support, security and otherwise, for a perfectly viable OS just because a new OS is released. There are many reasons why a user may wish to stay with an older OS, not the least of which is the need to continue using Rosetta/PPC applications or perfectly functioning hardware which can not run newer versions.

Please do not drop support for 10.6 when 10.8 is released this summer. You must realize there are a great many users still on 10.6.

And 10.5 Intel users need a Java/Flashback update too. Simply telling them to disable Java is unacceptable.

An unpatched security hole that is run into by hundreds of thousands of people not a bug? OK, maybe Sun/Oracle should get a report. But who do you think would be more likely to patch it for Apple. Them, or Apple? Already we are seeing people going to Target Store, where they publish coupons using a Java print engine, and it tells those who are patched they are using too old a Java, when their Java is probably newer than what Target has. I suppose the alternative is to have an outcry to all the web masters who rely on Java to use some other standard. Then what do we have? And how many web masters of big companies really listen to those complaints, or are told to ignore them since we are a "minority" on the net. Seriously, it is a bug. And maybe it doesn't bug you, but it sure bugs me.

Personally, I would drop the second sentence because from Apple's standpoint there are good reasons both technical & business oriented to drop support for the older OS versions & perhaps concentrate more on why users still need to use them.

Of course, YMMV.

Well, just so you know I have updated, and did as soon as I could. Still I can't help but wonder what others less technically capable would do.

a brody wrote:

An unpatched security hole that is run into by hundreds of thousands of people not a bug? OK, maybe Sun/Oracle should get a report. But who do you think would be more likely to patch it for Apple. Them, or Apple? Already we are seeing people going to Target Store, where they publish coupons using a Java print engine, and it tells those who are patched they are using too old a Java, when their Java is probably newer than what Target has. I suppose the alternative is to have an outcry to all the web masters who rely on Java to use some other standard. Then what do we have? And how many web masters of big companies really listen to those complaints, or are told to ignore them since we are a "minority" on the net. Seriously, it is a bug. And maybe it doesn't bug you, but it sure bugs me.

Sure, I see your point. But strictly speaking, a bug is an error within exisiting code, not code that should be released for a vulnerability. It bugs me, but I don't see it as a bug. Anyway, no harm in trying to convince the powers that be. Bug away!

RC_R wrote:

...& perhaps concentrate more on why users still need to use them.

Not clear. Don't get the point here. And, we already know why, from Apple's business standpoint, this is very unlikely to happen. But since this whole enterprise is probably already futile, why cede that before even getting started?

Sad to say but I think a lot of less technically capable users rarely if ever update anything to beyond what came installed on their computers to begin with.

http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/flashback-cleanup-still-underway-approxima tely-140000-infections

The flaw in the argument here being that all 10.6.7 operating systems and earlier are existing code. They have a hole that is unpatched, that is being poked into by outside powers. And it is unpatched because of the very reason no one else will patch an application update to allow them to use 10.6.8 or newer. There are dozens of applications out there that never have been patched because they are from companies that have gone under, or chosen to no longer keep up with the Mac operating system. And then along comes the need to use a Java that worked in 10.6.7 or earlier, but can't be because this hole is still sitting there.

Exactly my point R C-R. And those people are the ones most likely to come crying why is something not working, and are stuck not being able to update, unless Apple comes forth with a patch.

OK you talked me into it. I'll put another pebble (grain of sand more like it) in with a bug report. No harm trying.

a brody, since you seem to have a good grasp of this as a bug issue, how about preparing a brief sample bug report for us to see.