Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next 111 Replies Latest reply: Jul 4, 2015 12:00 PM by hornedfrog Go to original post
  • Grant Bennet-Alder Level 9 Level 9 (53,455 points)

    As far as Apple is concerned, they saw the error of their ways with Lion.

    No Lion installation discs.

    This caused some problems and they went back to standard procedure with Mountain Lion by offering installer discs.

     

    Could you please enlighten me?

     

    I see no evidence of installation discs for Lion.

     

    What is on them? Where do they come from?

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Not much to enlighten....

    There are no installation discs for Lion, but there are installation discs for Mountain Lion.

    Exactly what I said.

     

    Apple saw the errors of their ways and returned to producing installation discs after the Lion fiasco.

    Truth became apparent.

    People like myself do not use my primary computer for anything internet or network at all and no network means no Lion install.

    People like me and other facilities similar require installation discs because their computers are used for computing rather than social babbling.

    Out of ten computers I own.... only one is attached to any network, the one I am typing on right now.

    While rare, I am directed by Federal law to maintain this classification and some businesses also have this requirement.

    So,.... Lion was a fiasco for us rare types. No installation discs. (no possible means to update)

    Enlightened????

  • Grant Bennet-Alder Level 9 Level 9 (53,455 points)

    So you are saying that new computers now contain an Installation disc in the box?

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Please read my posts.

    I clearly stated that the Mac Pro mid 2012 does NOT come with ANY installation discs.

    This does not mean that you cannot purchase a retail Mountain Lion installation disc.

     

    What is stated here is that creating an operating system upgrade that can only be installed via internet connection was a business MISTAKE. Namely.... Lion and now Mountain Lion.

    (Apple does not want flawed copies of system installs circulating around, so the solution was internet only)

     

    In case curious minds are wondering....

    How does a person who authors classfied material obtain system updates?

    The answer is.... drumroll please.... more than business offers system updates on optical discs.

    System updates are free and free to be distributed.

    In short, an internet connection is not required, all that is required is a phone call to order the updates on optical disc. (typically once every 4 months)

    If you fall within this category that is a handy tip.

     

    If (like me) you have more than one computer.... then you simply choose Download Only from the software updater and transfer the update to the no network computer.

    HOW???? did a conversation about installing Snow Leopard on a Mac Pro mid 2012 end up here?

    Once again.... I reference the Mac Pro mid 2012.

    All else is irrelvant as far as I am concerned.

     

    Now this is funny.

    You cannot access the App store unless you have an Intel Mac running Snow Leopard.

    What if my hard drive fails and my computer is not Snow Leopard compatible and I have no system installations discs????

    The answer is.... you are sunk, stopped dead, kaput, unless you live near an Apple retail store or have two Intel Macs.

    I have neither and closest retail store is over 100 miles one way.

    As I stated before.... the FIRST thing to do is make a bootable clone and protect it carefully.

     

    I intend to make one more attempt at installing Snow Leopard on a Mac Pro mid 2012 this year.

    If I succeed I will make another post.

    I do not expect to succeed.

  • FatMac>MacPro Level 4 Level 4 (3,640 points)

    TOAO wrote:

     

    Not much to enlighten....

    There are no installation discs for Lion, but there are installation discs for Mountain Lion...

     

    ...I clearly stated that the Mac Pro mid 2012 does NOT come with ANY installation discs.

    This does not mean that you cannot purchase a retail Mountain Lion installation disc...

    It's interesting that Apple would start putting OS X installers back on DVD's at the same time that it is moving to eliminate DVD drives from their new Macs with the iMac being the latest but hardly the last. Apple has been offering OS X installers on media but only, so far as I've seen, on USB thumb drives at very high prices, for those with really slow internet connections and/or no DVD drives. It's also interesting that some of the newer Macs appear to require nonstandard installers, which would make for quite an inventory of DVD's to keep straight and distribute. On-line installation eliminates that, which may be one reason why Apple has been moving in that direction. Indeed, when the OS is updated, the full install you subsequently purchase through the App Store will be the latest version of the OS, not the initial version, as would generally turn up on a DVD.

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    I just finished a 4 hour long discussion with Apple on this topic.

    Much to my dismay.... there is no installation disc or thumb drive of any kind for the Mac Pro mid 2012 that Apple offers or produces.

    If your 2012 suffers a sudden catastrophic hard drive failure you CANNOT even boot the machine to produce a new hard drive installation.

    Regardless of all else said.... if you have not made a bootable clone of your system you are out of luck unless you go to an Apple retail store.

    Having said that.

     

    Say you decide to purchase Mountain Lion with the thought of burning your own installation disc.... think again.

    This is Not possible since your purchase only downloads the Installer Script and NONE of the operating system.

    In other words, your purchase of Mountain Lion does Not give you the ability to create any bootable device at all.

    What Installer Script does is seek an internet connection and your operating system is installed via internet.

    Since you cannot boot, you are dead in the water.

    Mid 2010 Mac Pro owners who have their Original Snow Leopard installation discs have something they can boot on.

    Mid 2012 Mac Pro owners have NOTHING they can boot on.

    The mid 2012 Mac Pro is NOT Snow Leopard compatible, and since Snow Leopard was the last system bootable installer made.... you cannot boot.

    If you have not made a bootable clone for your mid 2012 you have a real problem on your hands.

     

    I am going to conduct an experiment, please feel free to join in.

    REFERENCE Mac Pro mid 2012.

    Download the RecoveryDiskAssistant and install it.

    This will allow you to make what is basically a bootable clone out of an external drive.

    I have not conducted this experiment yet.

    Make a disc image with Disk Utilities and mount it as though it is an external drive.

    Use RecoveryDiskAssistant to make the disc image a bootable drive.

    Now burn the disc image (.dmg) to an optical disc.

    Crazy idea but it might work to produce a Mountain Lion bootable optical disc.

    I HAVE NOT PERFORMED THIS EXPERIMENT and it may not work or be possible but I am going to try it.

     

    Now for opinions:

    I have nothing complimentary to say about this new internet trend that Apple is forcing upon us.

    What I do know is that Apple is attempting to make EVERYTHING as foolproof and easy as possible.

    My OPINION is that placing total reliance upon the internet is not the best idea.

    For the majority of people this idea will work just fine, but for oddballs like me this does not serve me well.

    99.99% of all the time I have spent on a computer was and remains time without the need for any network or internet. (that is what makes me odd)

    I believe in redundant backup systems and on sight installation capability without need for any network, that makes me a minority.

    What's the point in airing my complaints????

    What this minority member needs is solutions that meet my specific requirements.

    Sharing complaints in a public forum such as this is a waste of time.

    I made my requirements known to Apple.

    Who knows???? maybe Apple will once again offer an installation disc to those with specific requirements.

    What I will not fault Apple with is their efforts to eliminate Piracy and that IS what Apple is doing.

    As a Federally copyrighted author of intellectual material and inventor I too suffer the threats and acts of thieves.

    If it weren't for Piracy, we would not be having this discussion.

  • FatMac>MacPro Level 4 Level 4 (3,640 points)

    TOAO wrote:

     

    ...Say you decide to purchase Mountain Lion with the thought of burning your own installation disc.... think again.

    This is Not possible since your purchase only downloads the Installer Script and NONE of the operating system.

    In other words, your purchase of Mountain Lion does Not give you the ability to create any bootable device at all.

    What Installer Script does is seek an internet connection and your operating system is installed via internet.

    Since you cannot boot, you are dead in the water...

    I'm not clear  where you're getting your information but the "Install OS X Mountain Lion.app" which you download after purchasing Mountain Lion from the App Store weighs in at about 4.4 GB which is pretty hefty for just an Installer Script. That's because it's not, and there are multiple threads and websites dealing with how to turn that into a bootable USB thumb drive (handier than a DVD since more and more Macs don't have drives to play DVD's in).

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Since I am new to Mountain Lion (2 weeks) I too am not entirely clear and to be emprirical, must run some experiments.

    The downloaded installer Script is NOT bootable, I actually ran through the entire procedure to verify this.

    The absolute minimum for a bootable Mountain Lion disk is 13GB.

    The download is an installer script.

    I suppose the hair could be split by stating that the script decompresses the download but this discussion is aimed at OFFLINE system installation. (the same as having an installer disc)

    This topic is also focused upon the Mac Pro 2012 which most certainly does have optical drives.

    (perhaps that is partly why they are so durn expensive)

     

    The reason that an optical drive disc is important to business and research types should be clear to any and all.

    There is no such thing as a hard drive that does not fail and optical discs will outlast a lifetime.

    (the SSD track record has yet to be determined)

    Those who realize this fact of hardware reality seek optical system installation discs and do not wish to be forced into using the internet.

    The key word here is forced.

     

    As my research into the mid 2012 Mac Pro and Mountain Lion has just begun I am picking up tidbits.

    Here is the latest.

     

    You CAN make a bootable Mountain Lion external drive from the internet or from your own installed system.

    This took me a couple days to figure out but the "problem" becomes very self evident.

    The "minimum" install (in other words bootable) size is 13GB.

    Well.... the dual dvd is only 8GB. (the downloaded 4.4GB Mountain Lion is not bootable until installed via script)

    The Mac Pro mid 2012 ships with DVD-R only.

     

    It seems that my optical installer disc experiment requires a Blu Ray drive.

    I have ordered two. (all my PowerPC Macs also have blu ray drives in them and work wonderfully regardless that an ATA to SATA bridge is required)

    Once I have installed a blu ray drive, my experiment will proceed.

  • LordZedd Level 1 Level 1 (70 points)

    Thanks again to you and anyone who can verify downgrading the marginally updated Mac Pros.

    The "updated" MacPros are identical to the 2010 models. The CPUs they use are only different in speed than the 2010 models.

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Your "computer" is NOT a software operating system.

    Your computer is HARDWARE. (you cannot "downgrade" your hardware unless you take a hammer to it)

    Amazing how so many define a computer as an operating software.

     

    As far as Snow Leopard compatibility is concerned and the reason this became an interest to me personally is that my CAD program is Leopard and Snow Leopard compatible but not Mountain Lion compatible.

    This situation occurs during any major operating system upgrade and eventually the software program engineers catch up. (its the "eventually" that can be irritating)

    My bad luck was to purchase my new Mac Pro a couple of months too late. What I received is not Snow Leopard compatible. (I received the 2012 model rather than the 2010 model and had no idea that an incompatibility existed.... Oh Well.... Apple assured me it was Snow Leopard compatible prior to purchase, an innocent error because the person I spoke to had not been informed)

    Since I cannot install Snow Leopard on my Mac Pro no matter what.... it is a dead issue to me.

    I will have to wait until my current applications become Mountain Lion compatible while I continue to use my older machine.

     

    Get the point?

    New software is expensive, many seek to continue using Snow Leopard for their applications that are not Mountain Lion compatible.

    One-more-time.... you cannot downgrade your hardware, but you can and are justified in using an operating system compatible with your current applications until you become wealthy enough to update.

     

    (for humor's sake.... install one of your Snow Leopard compatible applications on a Mountain Lion only compatible computer.... did you just downgrade your computer? or render your application worthless despite all the good money invested?... there is nothing wrong with my CAD program and it is extremely valuable and costly, because my new Mac Pro is not Snow Leopard compatible, my CAD is now worthless.... lucky me!, I have ten Macs.... unlucky me!, my software cannot take advantage of my new hardware)

     

    For what it's worth.

    The new Mac Pro mid 2012 has hardware identical to the 2010 model.

    However the hardware is not operated identically due to a rather significant firmware change.

     

    I do not know for certain if the EEPROM that accomplishes this is identical hardware or not, there is a good chance that it is a different chip due to programmed instruction set requirements.

    This change is not going to be witnessed in ANY technical specs regarding performance simply because the customer has no need to know.

    The technical performance and interface parameters between the 2010 and 2012 are "VIRTUALLY" identical.... by no means does this mean that they are identical in operation or compatibility.

    Most notably.... Snow Leopard is Not compatible with the 2012 and is compatible with the 2010 despite identical technical parameters. (system clock withstanding)

     

    Firmware is the bridge between hardware and software, it is odd to say the least.

    Firmware configures a set of gates to operate in a programmed fashion within a hardware design.

    Hardware is gates hardwired to operate in a Designed fashion.

    Splitting hairs is childish.

    A firmware chip although identical can be programmed radically different, but visually and electrically the hardware the firmware chip is installed upon (motherboard) is identical.

    This is why software geeks are not hardware engineers.

     

    Sorry LordZedd, you are mistaken. They ARE quite different.

  • LordZedd Level 1 Level 1 (70 points)

    Sorry, that is false.

    SL can be installed to a drive on a different machine then cloned onto your MP and it will operate exactly as a 2010 model.

  • FatMac>MacPro Level 4 Level 4 (3,640 points)

    LordZedd wrote:

     

    ...SL can be installed to a drive on a different machine then cloned onto your MP and it will operate exactly as a 2010 model...

    I'm not surprised to read that and it's certainly good news but have you done it successfully or do you know someone who has?

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    That question must answered in two parts. (for LordZedd's benefit)

     

    I am aware that SL can be installed on the 2010 model and run.

    So yes to that part.

     

    I am not aware of anyone who has done this successfully on the 2012 model.

     

    As the owner of the 2012 model, I am currently unsuccessful.

    In case my opinion matters.... I am on the verge of stopping any and all effort to install SL on the 2012 and have only one more option to attempt. (waiting for whatzits and thingamajigs to arrive)

     

    I was admittedly terrified that I did not have any offline recovery processes with my 2012.

    Turns out this can actually be achieved but as far as I know, only on writable drives and not optical discs.

    How is this relevant to installing SL?

     

    SL was the last operating system permanently written onto optical disc and capable of reinstalling an operating system via optical disc boot.

    With Lion and Montain Lion this went away.

    I was terrified because the computer became a dead pile of junk without a permanent bootable system on optical disc. Apple kept saying that ML was installable via internet and I kept saying that my computer has to be running before I can install via internet and a crashed hard drive won't run.

     

    After some searching and with no help from Apple, I discovered the Recovery FIRMWARE that exists in the 2012.

    In as few words as possible, the 2012 has firmware that will boot the computer and allow for reinstallation of ML regardless if the installation comes from an external drive* or the internet. (*recovery drive required)

    No boot drive or disc is required, the simple operating system is embedded in the new firmware. (in software geek terms, the simple operating system is a chip on the motherboard and this is new firmware)

    REGARDLESS.... all hard drives fail so my effort currently is to create a bootable ML optical disc. (optical discs will outlast my lifetime, hard drives will not)

     

    Back to topic....

    I do not know if this firmware change has rendered the 2012 "absolutely" SL incompatible or not, all evidence thus far indicates that it is indeed incompatible and Apple emphatically states that it is not compatible with SL.

    Meanhwile.... I am seeking to define this as an absolute true fact or not.

     

    Please be aware.... my new Mac Pro is only two weeks old and I have never seen or read about Mountain Lion and I am making the transition from PowerPC Leopard to Mountain Lion Intel while skipping Lion and Snow Leopard completely.

    No doubt.... some of my ignorance remains to be eliminated.

    (my interest in installing SL was based upon my CAD being ML incompatible)

  • LordZedd Level 1 Level 1 (70 points)

    so my effort currently is to create a bootable ML optical disc

    Not possible. Clone the "Install ESD" from inside the App onto a 16GB USB stick.

     

    I am seeking to define this as an absolute true fact or not.

    It is not a fact.

     

    Clone the SL installer onto a USB stick and boot from it.

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Actually I am currently working directly with Apple engineers and they have not stated that a bootable ML optical disc is impossible. They are waiting for me to document my procedure.

    (the primary research is based upon accessing a blu ray data drive without any third party code)

     

    Unless you have personal experience with the 2012, you are guessing that your suggestion is beneficial or valid. All I can say is thanks for trying to help.

     

    Once again I asked Apple to help me with this because of what happened during my purchase.

    (in fact Apple offered me a total refund)

    You see, my CAD is actually more expensive than a brand new Mac Pro filled with Ram and new Monitor.

    Like I said.... I am waiting to prove this SL issue true or false.

     

    If you have personal experience with the 2012, you will have noticed that the XD firmware change disallows any and all installations from SL regardless of what the installer is cloned upon.

    I have a process ordered with Apple's help and waiting for its arrival.

     

    If you know someone who is running SL on a Mac Pro mid 2012 that previously had ML installed, let me know.

    That is a VERY SPECIFIC condition and all that is relevant to the 2010 is null and void.

    They are NOT the same due to firmware.

    (I am a retired physicist and hardware engineer, I KNOW what firmware does)

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