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install Snow Leopard on New Mac Pro

12894 Views 110 Replies Latest reply: Jun 23, 2013 8:07 PM by dcouzin RSS
  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
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    Dec 8, 2012 9:34 PM (in response to TOAO)

    Perhaps if I address this from a different perspective.

    If you had to design a computer system that would detect ANY form of code other than installed code that can operate the hardware at system level and prevent it from operating the hardware as a protective security measure.... what would you do?

     

    The answer is:

    Install an EPROM or PAL that would stop all alternate system code from executing any instruction that did not match installed system. (firmware)

     

    This would not prevent installed applications from using system disc or ram or computing operations but it would stop malicious system executable code in its tracks. (the hacker cannot reprogram the firmware)

     

    To achieve this state of design, the computer cannot be allowed to run more than one operating system because the firmware is effectively hardwired in the motherboard.

    Final key is to disallow reprogramming of firmware by any installer but Apple's encrypted installer verified by Apple that is constantly changing.

    This is why Lion and ML do not have optical installer discs.

    It is also why ANY optical installer disc with ML must constantly be updated and re-created and the hazard with this method is that an outdated ML optical disc can reset the firmware and cause unforseen problems.

    Its one of those Customer Beware! things.

     

    Does that help?

    Its like trying to install SL on a brand new Macbook Pro.... CANNOT BE DONE DUE TO FIRMWARE RESTRICTION.

    It makes no difference if you install a cloned hard drive from an older Macbook or not.

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 2:00 PM (in response to LordZedd)

    THE VERDICT IS IN.

    This is SPECIFIC to the Mac Pro mid 2012 Radeon 5870 32GB Ram WITH Mountain Lion previously installed.

    APPLY this to no other configuration despite its relevance. (this is due to altered Firmware in the 2012 model)

     

    Snow Leopard is installable and will run on the Mac Pro mid 2012.... HOWEVER!!!!.... Pay Attention!!!!

     

    Installation of Snow Leopard on the 2012 model produces a HUGE number of disk permission errors due to its new firmware and are permissions that Cannot Be Repaired.

    What this means to the User is that somewhere along the line there WILL be program execution errors due to improper system calls.

    The ONLY reason Snow Leopard works at all in the 2012 is because the overwhelming majority of system code is Identical in Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion, otherwise it would not function at all due to XD firmware.

    In simple terms.... what is not Identical is firmware and this makes a big difference between the 2010 and 2012 models.

     

    Installing Snow Leopard in the 2012 and 2010 is quite easy and does not require any cloned hard drive or installation clone on or from any external device.

    It is installed via Installation DVD.

    Specifically Snow Leopard 10.6.4.

    Simply purchase this installer disc from Apple. ($18) (no other Snow Leopard installer disc will work)

     

    I again refer to the conditions SPECIFIC to the mid 2012 model with Mountain Lion previously installed in the following.

    The 10.6.4  installer DVD will NOT boot using the "C" key. (firmware restriction)

    The computer will run home to Mountain Lion installed and tell you that the installer is incompatible and will refuse to launch the installer. (I did not attempt to use Option restart, it may also work but I don't know)

     

    Boot the computer in Mountain Lion.

    Insert the 10.6.4 installer DVD.

    Simply choose the installer disc as Startup under System Preferences and Restart.

    The computer will then boot off the installer disc and you may install Snow Leopard.

    Once completed, be certain run Software Update no less than twice after every restart.

    (don't be a fool and try to install Snow Leopard over the top of Mountain Lion, install Snow Leopard on its own drive)

     

    To answer the question, "will Snow Leopard install and run on the Mac Pro Mid 2012 machine?"

    The answer is:

    Yes and No.

    (it will Run but there will be problems due to modified firmware, it all depends on what your definition of "Run" is)

     

    Will Snow Leopard install and run on the mid 2010 Mac Pro?

    Yes (no known problems)

  • Avanet Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 3:49 PM (in response to NickyCee)

    I Hate Mountain Lion & Lion. With Microsoft having chased after Apple for the past 23+ years trying to come up with a decent PC Operating System, I find it sad that Apple now seems to be going backwards and trying to reach where Microsoft was 20 years ago.

     

    From someone who has supported the complete line of Apple products for over 28 years, I find it does NOT matter which flavour of Lion one chooses, they both, in my opinion suck. Oh and thank you Apple for not publicly announcing the Migration tool is useless with apps being transferred to Lion .?

     

    It does not keep the preferences or the serialization in any of the apps I tried. And why would you leave out Rosetta? Do you have a deal with software developers to share the cost of the upgrades to their products? No CD/DVD Player and FireWire is also, in my opinion a crime.

     

    Finally, let me say this, just because you can make a really crappy piece of Software like the Lion family does not mean you should! I for one, am thinking seriously of taking all my clients back to the dreaded PC World where one would might expect garbage like the Lion family!

  • MlchaelLAX Level 4 Level 4 (1,530 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 4:25 PM (in response to Avanet)

    Avanet wrote:

     

    ...And why would you leave out Rosetta? Do you have a deal with software developers to share the cost of the upgrades to their products?

    FWIW: Apple licensed the underlying technology for Rosetta from a third party software company.  That license expired for new versions of OS X with the introduction of Lion and thereafter.  Consolidating its hold on the PowerPC platform, IBM has acquired the third party software company, and it is doubtful that IBM would relicense it to Apple, even if Apple wanted them to.

  • The hatter Level 9 Level 9 (58,535 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 5:04 PM (in response to MlchaelLAX)

    Apple also, like they had to and wanted to do in the past, to remove old code base and have a cleaner code and compiler support that provides better optimization and overcomes limitations.

     

    Rosetta had such issues and limitations in performance, RAM requirements and overhead as a result. And testing and support.

     

    68k code was the bane of OS 8/9 that once removed (90%+) made features and functions better and allowed for PowerPC to dominate and be the code base.

     

    Support for the 64-bit kernel and get the drivers and plugins and enforce no more process that were part of that 32-bit era.

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 7:52 PM (in response to The hatter)

    Shame on me for my response to this. I know it is not wise or beneficial to share feelings and opinions in technical forums, but perhaps.... an exception is called for.

     

    1. There is no debate that all computer operation system engineers are striving to improve performance.

    2. There is no doubt that computer hardware engineers are creating the ability to produce improved performance both in hardware and software.

    3. There is no doubt whatsoever that mistakes will be made during the course of these events.

    4. There is no doubt that some things are going to be made obsolete, sometimes painfully, in the process.

     

    There is however the customer to consider.

    In the Snow Leopard, Lion, Mountain Lion issue all of these things apply with one clear mistake despite any opinion.

    Lion was a transitional mistake cured or at least improved by Mountain Lion. Avoiding Lion is a good idea.

     

    Snow Leopard on the other hand is subject to debate by some and undebatable by others.

    That topic is of course Rosetta.

    Rather than discussing Rosetta and its ups and downs, consider the customer.

    Fact is, not only are Macs expensive but so is software and with all the recent and rapid operation system changes, the software vendors have been scrambling like mad to make their products compatible.

     

    This produced the obvious need for Rosetta in Snow Leopard.

    Not only was forcing the customer to re-purchase software a bit brutal but many programs were still incompatible.

    The average customer required Rosetta to stay functional at least for a time.

    Now that this time has past at least in the majority of software vendors, there was no more need for Rosetta.

    What this leaves behind is those who cannot afford upgrades and those (like myself) who have invested heavily into software that is only Leopard and Snow leopard compatible with no indication that it will ever be made Lion or Mountain Lion compatible. (in fact one of my vendors no longer produces Mac compatible software because the PC market is far more lucrative and it is the only software that produces a specific scientific product I require)

    For us in this unique position, the ability to use Snow Leopard with Rosetta became an absolute requirement and still is.

     

    It does not require a crystal ball to predict that the computer and operating system you are using right now will someday be titled the bane of the computer industry ten years from now.

    What really matters is the ability to update your stuff into the next generation.

    While not "perfect" Apple has done a fairly good job in that respect.

     

    Here is what the crystal ball clearly says.

    There nothing stopping the creation of 1024 bit processors.

    There is nothing stopping the re-creation of Parallel bus storage drives that utilize modern serial bus advancements and produce storage drives that for all accounts operate instantly.

    There is nothing stopping hardware engineers from designing chips that ARE entire applications or operating systems thereby eliminating all need for any portion of any base operating system from residing on a storage device.

     

    So, its best not to badmouth the dead operating systems or the future mistakes or current mistakes.

     

    Recall I was going to share an opinion????

    Here it is. I despise having facebook and twitter and similar installed in my operating system.

     

    I want Apple to professionally engineer an uninstaller for ALL social site networking code in Mountain Lion because it is a VIRUS that IS severely slowing down your computer and placing unreasonable wear on hard drives and hardware. (puts Rosetta to shame)

    EVERY.... ( I mean "every") document, picture, drawing, movie, music file you create is being formatted for web transfer in the background without stop regardless if you have enabled facebook or twitter or icloud or whatever.

    THIS is a severe waste of computer processing power for those of us who only want or need a "Home" computer.

    How about.... give the customer the OPTION to choose what is installed????

     

    My solution has always been two computers.

    One cheap "sacrificial" computer that I use for internet and email processes and one more that never attaches to any network. (this is how I ended up with ten Macs ha!.... always two)

     

    Today this is very feasible.

    One of a selection of mobile devices and one desktop computer.

    Ask yourself.... of what use is all that network capability to a desktop system when you have mobile devices and iCloud and can place data on small portable SSD devices, and USB and Smartcard and similar?

    Is it really a supreme torture to attach a device to your desktop for file transfers?

    Does everything have to be wireless?

    Wouldn't it be most pleasing to have a desktop computer that wastes no extra effort at all in doing anything but processing documents, pictures, movies, music, drawings, and CAD and such as efficiently as is technically possible?

    Evidently.... my desire for such a thing is merely my opinion.

    Because this is my "opinion" I expect all responses to this post to be abusive. Oh Well.

  • MlchaelLAX Level 4 Level 4 (1,530 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 11, 2012 9:48 PM (in response to TOAO)

    TOAO wrote:

     

    ...

    What this leaves behind is those who cannot afford upgrades and those (like myself) who have invested heavily into software that is only Leopard and Snow leopard compatible with no indication that it will ever be made Lion or Mountain Lion compatible. (in fact one of my vendors no longer produces Mac compatible software because the PC market is far more lucrative and it is the only software that produces a specific scientific product I require)

    For us in this unique position, the ability to use Snow Leopard with Rosetta became an absolute requirement and still is.

    Consider installing Snow Leopard (with Rosetta) into Parallels:

     

    Appleworks.jpg

                                  [click on image to enlarge]

     

    Full Snow Leopard installation instructions here:

     

    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1365439

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 8:44 AM (in response to MlchaelLAX)

    Thanks very much and I can see how this could be very useful, I will give it a look.

    In my previous posts I defined how to install Snow Leopard with Rosetta on a Mac Pro mid 2012 desktop.

    (also works on the mid 2010)

    For those who do not have optical drives, your suggestion may do the trick.

  • The hatter Level 9 Level 9 (58,535 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 9:50 AM (in response to TOAO)

    I have never seen or read I guess for your sake anyone that once they had 10.6.5 or later (10.6.8 recommended) have trouble.

     

    There is no 10.6.5 DVD

    There is the Lion + SL USB flash card $69 (may not be around, maybe it is or is ML + 10.6.8?)

     

    You won't get very far with Apple engineers usually unless you are a developer.

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 12, 2012 12:14 PM (in response to The hatter)

    I agree totally, I have never seen or heard of a 10.6.5 install DVD.

    I am wondering where that reference came from.... perhaps a typo?

     

    I do have to continually keep repeating myself for some reason.

    I reference the Mac Pro mid 2012 desktop.

     

    I do not reference ANY previous experience with the Mac Pro mid 2010 which is so common.

    The Mac Pro mid 2012 is Not identical to the 2010 due to its firmware.

    These changes in firmware are not listed or even mentioned in advertisement or specification.

    I discovered them the hard way.

     

    I am an Apple developer, if you assume that means software.... Think Again.

    I am hardware only, you know the stuff that software types keep abusing, the stuff that is the computer.

    My knowledge of software is Very Limited since it is always post facto to hardware.

    What I do know and are familiar with is software that fails to properly operate hardware and what firmware does to hardware operation.

    The hardware always directs the software engineer. (the software engineer then demands that hardware become magical)

     

    As it works out, Mountain Lion software has a serious bug in its hardware control and I am currently working with Apple on this problem.

    Trust me, the vast and overwhelming majority of users will not be affected in any way and are completely oblivious to the problem.

    This Mountain Lion software bug went completely unnoticed and the typical customer should not be concerned about this bug at all.

    This does not mean that it is not serious.

    It will be fixed in a future update and 99.99% of users will never notice any change whatsoever.

    There is currently no need at all to even mention the bug fix in future updates.

    (the bug is only specific to a microscopic group of users)

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2012 12:41 PM (in response to The hatter)

    Just so we are all on the same page.

     

    ALL persons who have made clones of Mac Pros running Snow Leopard as the solutiuon to install Snow Leopard have violated US and International Copyright Law with only one conditional exception.

    The exception is a person who personally owns two Intel Macs and has legally purchased Snow Leopard.

    (SLOA allows for installation of SL on two computers PURCHASED BY ONE PERSON)

     

    Every other person who has or suggests that a clone be made of somebody else's Snow Leopard hard drive has confessed to a Felony and encourages that Federal Law be violated.

    I did not write these laws, I just quote them and there is no contest.

    (those who have a contrary "Napster" OPINION with regard to these laws were convicted as felons by the US Supreme Court in case this issue was forgotten.... spare me any and all debates)

     

    The LEGAL solution and comically enough.... the Simplest solution.... is to purchase the Snow Leopard 10.6.4 installation disc only available from Apple. It is the ONLY Snow Leopard installer disc that works with the 2010 and 2012 Mac Pro. (see my previous post dated Dec 11 2012 2pm)

    $18

    It is NOT the retail Snow Leopard 10.6.3 installer disc that any retailer including Apple sells.

     

    Isn't $18 a small enough price to avoid becoming a felon and enduring the effort and time in making a clone that is in most cases illegal????

     

    Is does not matter if these "clone" persons ever get charged and convicted.... they are felons and cannot state otherwise. (see only exception above)

     

    I refuse to to promote copyright infringement, intellectual property theft, or anything similar defined as piracy.

    Guess that makes me a minority.

    I have morals.

  • FatMac\>MacPro Level 4 Level 4 (2,065 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2012 2:47 PM (in response to TOAO)

    TOAO wrote:

     

    Just so we are all on the same page.

     

    ALL persons who have made clones of Mac Pros running Snow Leopard as the solutiuon to install Snow Leopard have violated US and International Copyright Law with only one conditional exception.

    The exception is a person who personally owns two Intel Macs and has legally purchased Snow Leopard.

    (SLOA allows for installation of SL on two computers PURCHASED BY ONE PERSON)...

    Actually, the Software License Agreement located here http://images.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macosx106.pdf says that "you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-branded computer at a time." And just to make that clear, it goes on to say "This License does not allow the Apple Software to exist on more than one computer at a time." If you bought a Family Pack, the license is good for up to five Macs located in the same household. It says the same thing in the little book that comes bundled with the installer disk.

     

    In this case the "same page" is four pages of very small type in the pdf.

    ...The LEGAL solution and comically enough.... the Simplest solution.... is to purchase the Snow Leopard 10.6.4 installation disc only available from Apple. It is the ONLY Snow Leopard installer disc that works with the 2010 and 2012 Mac Pro. (see my previous post dated Dec 11 2012 2pm)

    $18

    It is NOT the retail Snow Leopard 10.6.3 installer disc that any retailer including Apple sells....

     

    That is the same as the installation disk that was included with my 2010 Mac Pro. It is interesting that while Apple is apparently adamant that you cannot run Snow Leopard on a 2012 Mac Pro, they are more than willing to sell you a Mac Pro specific Snow Leopard installer disk for that purpose.

    Mac Pro, Mac OS X (10.7.5), 5,1 6-core 24 GB 5870 27" LED ACD
  • PixelbenderX Calculating status...
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2012 3:53 PM (in response to TOAO)

    TOAO wrote:

     

    THE VERDICT IS IN.

    This is SPECIFIC to the Mac Pro mid 2012 Radeon 5870 32GB Ram WITH Mountain Lion previously installed.

     

    Snow Leopard is installable and will run on the Mac Pro mid 2012.... HOWEVER!!!!.... Pay Attention!!!!

     

    Installation of Snow Leopard on the 2012 model produces a HUGE number of disk permission errors due to its new firmware and are permissions that Cannot Be Repaired.

    What this means to the User is that somewhere along the line there WILL be program execution errors due to improper system calls.

     

    So, the above is what is important to us end-users poised to purchase an additional workstation.

    I very much appreciate the time you and others have spent with this problem and that you have shared your experience.

    I do rather wish we could stick to the main thread of USING a currently shipping Mac Pro with Snow Leopard, though.

     

    Have you Mr Toao, or anyone else, proceeded with doing any useful work with this configuration?

    I assume one would be foolish to try, if you value your data and your time.

     

      What have we learned?


    In the (semi-)final analysis:


    If you need a MP tower with all it's configuration advantages, and the undeniable stability and useability of OS X 10.6, Then; the only options are:


    1. Procure one of the quickly vanishing inventory of new (old version) 2010 Mac Pros if it's not too late.
    2. Take your chances with a used computer, since the 2012 Mac Pro and Apple refurbished 2010 MP has been corrupted with the dreaded new firmware and will not properly "run" Snow Leopard.

     

     

    If anyone can refute the above, with real life, hands-on experience – please share your knowledge.

     

    Thanks to everyone (Hatter et al) who have tried to nail down this significant issue for pro users.

    Mac Pro, Mac OS X (10.6.8)
  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2012 6:25 PM (in response to PixelbenderX)

    THAT is a very astute question.

    I cannot "fully" answer that question personally. I can only state the obvious. (disk permission errors)

    My Mac Pro mid 2012 is not even a month old yet, so I cannot make any claims as to Snow Leopard compatibility as wholly empirical.

     

    What I have done so far is use Snow Leopard upon 6 different applications aside from installed Apple applications including iLife.

    So far, I have not had any troubles at all.

    I will continue testing for the next year on more advanced and more complex applications.

     

    To avoid being foolish, I make certain that I have known compatible applications running on both PowerPC Leopard and Intel Mountain Lion to the extent that compatibility permits.

    This preserves my data and time.

    (not everyone can do this.... I can, I have ten Macs)

     

    Aside from some irritations.... I actually prefer to run Mountain Lion but make no mistake, my irritations are justifiable.

    This becomes a matter of user requirements only.

    I have two applications that are not Mountain Lion compatible.

    One has stopped all production for mac computers, the other has no need to make their software Mountain Lion compatible. (an odd topic I prefer to leave unmentioned)

     

    Bottom line.... only time will tell at this point.

    I will detail any problems I experience running Snow Leopard with the Mac Pro mid 2012.

  • TOAO Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)
    Currently Being Moderated
    Dec 13, 2012 6:42 PM (in response to FatMac\>MacPro)

    THANKS!!!!

    SLOA agreements do change from system to system and application to application and version.

    I most certainly failed to mention that detail.

     

    I have a family pack license but have not installed SL or any other operating system on more than one computer as per SLOA agreement. (and no, the installer disc I purchased does not come with a booklet, the 2012 has no installer disc whatsoever but the retail SL installers do)

     

    A "gray" area appears that is not to be abused.

    If you have an old Mac Pro and buy a new one and install SL on the new computer without making distribution or use on the old computer then you only have SL installed on one computer "in use".

    It would not be wise to abuse this gray area.

    (obviously I had to purchase my operating systems and applications accordingly since I always have two computers running or "in use")

     

    I can only guess, but it is fair to assume that Apple has made this SL installer disc available for people who truly need SL due to one circumstance or another.

     

    What Apple Is adamant about is refusal to provide technical support for SL on the 2012.

    (use at your own risk)

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