how do I do a "save as" on Pages?

Hi peter

With the new scheme we master the state as we ever did.

-- open a document

as long as we aren't fool enough to embed a living item like a date there is no chjange applied to it.

-- duplicate the document

changes nothing to the original

-- save the duplicate with the wanted name/location so that Autosave will apply

required due to the bug already described

-- edit the duplicate as we want

AutoSave apply

-- close the duplicate document

it saves automatically every changes.

When the described bug will be killed it's during the close process that we will set the name and the location because when it will apply automatically, AutoSave will save in a temporary location (the one displayed in my late screenshot).

One more time, it would be even more efficient if like me you start from templates.

About living dates, when we create a custom one, if we insert a living date in it, it would behave as a really living one in the documents created from the template … only if we don't apply a tip described in the 1st half of 2009. This tip give to this kind of date the same behavior than dates embedded in in-the-box templates. Its value is set to the date of the new doc creation, then it remains fixed.

Every applications accept templates.

Some like : iBooks Author, Keynote, Numbers, Pages require a specific name extension

Others like Preview or TextEdit are ruled by a setting applied in the file's infos window.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 18 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Yvan

There are many aspects to this that you have not thought through, just as Apple has not.

Newton established the rules of the universe that help us understand intelectually what we know instinctively.

Objects remain in their original condition unless an external force changes them. Apple has chosen to have a hidden external force change things behind our backs and it is extremely frustrating to try and follow what is going on and prevent it when you do not want ANY changes at all.

A typical example is work that posters send me to determine what is going wrong. Whether I work on the original file or a duplicate, OSX Lion is constantly saving changes I do not want to take effect as I experiment with the file.

I never know at what point the saves are happening without having to examine the file for possibly minute changes. I never know what is the original file, because to open it is to eventually change it.

This applies to many files that I receive as part of my workflow. I do not want to change what the client has given me in any way because it is my reference, my safety net, my legal binding evidence of what was given to me.

Further I do not want to issue work that has versions in it, because I do not want clients reverting to previous versions and in many cases I do not want them to even see what I may have done.

Trying to keep track of what version of which document has been exported to possibly a further versioned alternate format is a nightmare. The clients will have the same problem as they can not safely establish what I have given them is not changed on their computer.

This all smacks to me of idiots trying to be smart, but not realising how far off target they are.

This is way beyond even Microsoft's Paperclip Bob for constantly tripping you up whilst supposedly "being helpful"

Peter

PeterBreis0807 wrote:

Yvan

A typical example is work that posters send me to determine what is going wrong. Whether I work on the original file or a duplicate, OSX Lion is constantly saving changes I do not want to take effect as I experiment with the file.

I never know at what point the saves are happening without having to examine the file for possibly minute changes. I never know what is the original file, because to open it is to eventually change it.

This applies to many files that I receive as part of my workflow. I do not want to change what the client has given me in any way because it is my reference, my safety net, my legal binding evidence of what was given to me.

If you apply the workflow which I described, the changes apply to the duplicate, no to the original.

When I receive such documents for tests, the first thing which I do is to rename them.

xx.numbers become xx.nmbtemplate

yy.pages become yy.template

zz.key become zz.kth

This way, they behave as template and the original isn't modified.

I'm a bit tired to be forced to repeat this simple scheme so often.

Further I do not want to issue work that has versions in it, because I do not want clients reverting to previous versions and in many cases I do not want them to even see what I may have done.

Trying to keep track of what version of which document has been exported to possibly a further versioned alternate format is a nightmare.

If you choose to trust ranters which don't understand the tool's behavior, no need to ask my advice.

I repeat that versions aren't stored in the documents.

Yes, I wrote once, just after the Lion delivery, that they were stored in the doc but I explained the correct behavior more than twenty times since.

They are stored in a hidden folder which never move to an other device.

On the left I show the folder in which documents are saved.

On the right is the hidden folder whose access is disabled in which datas describing the versions are stored.

I carefully use different verbs.

The system save documents but it store datas describing the versions.

If you duplicate a document from the HD on which it is saved to an other HD, only the document is duplicated.

If you move a document from the HD on which it is saved to an other HD, the datas describing versions are deleted on the original HD.

I described that in detail in :

Versions as a recovery tool

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3303794

Alas, if I may explain features, I can't read these explanations for you.

I gave scripts able to duplicate the hidden folder in a safe area so that :

(1) we don't loose the datas if we delete a file by mistake

(2) we may replace, for the replicate, the "access denied" status by "read allowed"

This way, if we mistakenly delete a file, or get it corrupted, we may extract (thanks to the two other scripts) the datas related to versions allowing the app to recreate a correct document.

More, when you use the scripts, you see the date when the differents version-datas were stored so you may choose the version to revive.

I'm waiting a bit because I want to try to think to every possible consequences but I plan to file an enhancement request : in the window displaying the versions, replace the doc name which uselessly appear at top of every version by the date-time of these versions. Displaying the doc's name only once at top of the current version seems to be sufficient.

If you think of a possible drawback of such change, let me know.

Of course, I plan also to ask Apple to deliver an official application doing what I offered with my three scripts.

I'm unable to code in C+ so I can't gather the scripts in a single tool whose use would be easier.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 18 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Here Yvan try and follow this:

1. I receive a file open and duplicate it, hopefully I have beaten any attempt by Lion to save changes to the original which is a named file and subject to auto save.

2. I then work on the duplicate, trying a lot of alternatives which are getting saved as I work so that the file is no longer original. To get back to the original state I have to start all over again or jump through complicated hoops to find a version that may or may not be the original file as I opened it.

3. As this is happening behind my back, I would need to hunt out the saved versions and compare them to an opened "original" version to find out what has changed, only the "original" version would also be being changed whilst I am checking it for changes!

4. As the versioning is stored on your current system's hard drive, what happens when the file is on another hard drive or volume? What happens when you switch systems/users to work on the same file? What happens across servers?

5. What happens to backup copies which are obviously on another drive?

6. What happens when someone accesses the file on the original drive and can check through and possible revert back to older versions? Like when I thought twice about calling the Apple Engineers Arse Hats for creating this monster.

It is like herding cats.

Whatever Apple chooses to do in a hidden folder is hardly illuminating or helpful to the user who isn't watching what is going on, nor even able to easily check what is going on if they have to.

To make this "easier" the user needs to understand what Apple hasn't bothered to explain and isn't readily apparent. Frankly my brain is not "the size of the universe" and is unlikely to become so just by Apple assuming I fall into 2 categories:

Too stupid to know

or

So clever, I don't need to be told!

Peter

Hello Peter

Here is a slightly enhanced version of a script already posted months ago.

I azdded support of the iBooks Author files.

--{code}

--[SCRIPT set_stationery]

(*

Enregistrer le script en tant que Script : set_stationery.scpt

déplacer le fichier ainsi créé dans le dossier

<VolumeDeDémarrage>:Utilisateurs:<votreCompte>:Bibliothèque:Scripts:

Aller au menu Scripts , choisir “set_stationery”

Naviguer pour sélectionner le document à convertir en modèle.

On peut également enregistrer en tant qu’application.

Dans ce cas,

double cliquer puis naviguer pour sélectionner le document à convertir en modèle.

ou

glisser déposer l’icône du document à convertir sur celle de l'application

Si vous définissez la property add_TM comme true, le caractère ™ sera inséré à la fin du nom du document converti pour faciliter son repérage.

--=====

L’aide du Finder explique:

L’Utilitaire AppleScript permet d’activer le Menu des scripts :

Ouvrez l’Utilitaire AppleScript situé dans le dossier Applications/AppleScript.

Cochez la case “Afficher le menu des scripts dans la barre de menus”.

Sous 10.6.x,

aller dans le panneau “Général” du dialogue Préférences de l’Éditeur Applescript

puis cocher la case “Afficher le menu des scripts dans la barre des menus”.

--=====

Save the script as a Script: set_stationery.scpt

Move the newly created file into the folder:

<startup Volume>:Users:<yourAccount>:Library:Scripts:

Go to the Scripts Menu, choose “set_stationery”

Navigate then select the document to convert.

You may also save as an application.

In this case :

double clic the app’s icon to navigate then select the document to convert.

or

drag and drop the icon of the document to convert upon the app’s icon

If you set the property add_TM to true, the character ™ will be inserted at the end of the filename allowing you to quickly identify stationeries.

--=====

The Finder’s Help explains:

To make the Script menu appear:

Open the AppleScript utility located in Applications/AppleScript.

Select the “Show Script Menu in menu bar” checkbox.

Under 10.6.x,

go to the General panel of AppleScript Editor’s Preferences dialog box

and check the “Show Script menu in menu bar” option.

--=====

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France)

2011/09/08

2012/01/01 added support of the alternate iWork's typeIDs

2012/04/18 added support of iBooks Author documents

*)

--=====

property add_TM : true

(*

true = insert the character ™ at the end of the filename

false = leave the name untouched

*)

property un_document : ""

--=====

script main

(*

Use the property un_document *)

local type_ID

tell application "System Events" to set type_ID to type identifier of disk item (my un_document)

if type_ID is in {"com.apple.iwork.keynote.key", "com.apple.iwork.keynote.sffkey"} then

(*

Convert a Keynote document *)

tell application "System Events" to tell disk item (my un_document) to set name to (text 1 thru -4 of (get name) & "kth")

else if type_ID is in {"com.apple.iwork.numbers.numbers", "com.apple.iwork.numbers.sffnumbers"} then

(*

Convert a Numbers document *)

tell application "System Events" to tell disk item (my un_document) to set name to (text 1 thru -8 of (get name) & "nmbtemplate")

else if type_ID is in {"com.apple.iwork.pages.pages", "com.apple.iwork.pages.sffpages"} then

(*

Convert a Pages document *)

tell application "System Events" to tell disk item (my un_document) to set name to (text 1 thru -6 of (get name) & "template")

else if type_ID is in {"com.apple.ibooksauthor.book", "com.apple.ibooksauthor.pkgbook"} then

(*

Convert an iBooks Author document *)

tell application "System Events" to tell disk item (my un_document) to set name to (text 1 thru -5 of (get name) & "template")

else if type_ID is in {"com.apple.iwork.keynote.kth", "com.apple.iwork.keynote.sffkth", "com.apple.iwork.numbers.template", "com.apple.iwork.numbers.sfftemplate", "com.apple.iwork.pages.template", "com.apple.iwork.pages.sfftemplate", "com.apple.ibooksauthor.template", "com.apple.ibooksauthor.pkgtemplate"} then

(*

Skip iBooks Author, Keynote, Numbers, Pages templates *)

set my un_document to ""

error number -128

else

tell application "System Events"

try

tell disk item (my un_document)

if not stationery then

set stationery to true

if add_TM then

(*

Optionally insert ™ at the end of the filename to easily recognize templates *)

set name_extension to name extension

if name_extension is "" then

set name to name & " ™"

else

set name to (text 1 thru -(2 + (count of name_extension)) of (get name) & " ™." & name_extension)

end if -- name_extension

end if -- add_TM

end if -- not stationery

end tell -- disk item…

end try

end tell -- System Events

end if -- type_id

(*

Clean the stored property *)

set my un_document to ""

end script

--=====

on run

set my un_document to ((choose file without invisible) as text)

run script main

end run

--=====

on open sel

set my un_document to (first item of sel) as text

run script main

end open

--=====

--[/SCRIPT]

--{code}

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 18 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

PeterBreis0807 wrote:

Here Yvan try and follow this:

1. I receive a file open and duplicate it, hopefully I have beaten any attempt by Lion to save changes to the original which is a named file and subject to auto save.

2. I then work on the duplicate, trying a lot of alternatives which are getting saved as I work so that the file is no longer original. To get back to the original state I have to start all over again or jump through complicated hoops to find a version that may or may not be the original file as I opened it.

3. As this is happening behind my back, I would need to hunt out the saved versions and compare them to an opened "original" version to find out what has changed, only the "original" version would also be being changed whilst I am checking it for changes!

4. As the versioning is stored on your current system's hard drive, what happens when the file is on another hard drive or volume? What happens when you switch systems/users to work on the same file? What happens across servers?

It is like herding cats.

Whatever Apple chooses to do in a hidden folder is hardly illuminating or helpful to the user who isn't watching what is going on, nor even able to easily check what is going on if they have to.

To make this "easier" the user needs to understand what Apple hasn't bothered to explain and isn't readily apparent. Frankly my brain is not "the size of the universe" and is unlikely to become so just by Apple assuming I fall into 2 categories:

Too stupid to know

or

So clever, I don't need to be told!

Peter

One more time, you didn't read carefully.

A document file contains a single state of the work in progress : the late one.

If you didn't explicitely as the app to do, it store versions datas once an hour.

So, you are exactly in the same old situation.

Without Autosave, to revert to an old state of the file, you had to close the modified document and restart from it's original state.

Now, you close the modified doc and create a new duplicate.

In both cases, you are free to apply undo if you want to remove some changes.

The versions aren't stored on the startup HD, they are stored at the very first level on the HD where the file is saved.

If you switch the user account or if you restart from an other HD, no problem. It the file is on a mounted HD, related versions are mounted too.

It's really boring to see that you and others are criticing a feature which you didn't tried to study a bit.

About half what is done by the operating system is stored in hidden files since the delivery of OS X.

Older systems used also hidden files but with a smaller extent.

What is delivered by Apple is perfect as long as :

(1) we don't delete a file by error

(2) a file is not corrupted for some reason.

As a long time user, you know that these cases aren't specific to Lion.

I receive several corrupted files each week and I don't count the number of users loosing their datas for some reason (often because they played with matches).

In case of crash, what is delivered in-the-box brings the files to surface.

Apple just forgot the two cases described above.

The way Versions is designed, we aren't supposed to enter the hidden folder but I just decided to give us the ability to give more power to the delivered tool.

It's not the first time which I give tools filling gaps.

Without AutoSave and Versions, what I offered can't be done.

Versions doesn't apply to networks. If my memory is right, it's because it is dedicated to HFS+ devices.

Oops, I was forgotting something.

The preference allowing iWork applications to keep a backup of the original document when we save it is always available under Lion. As I don't use it I don't know if it apply each time the app autosave.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 18 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

I just thought of another fun instance:

2 people access the same file and edit it at different times. Now they have two sets of versions on two different computers with theoretically the same file.

Peter

Really boring to see that you can't read carefully.

I carefully wrote that Versions doesn't apply on files saved on a network.

If user1 open a file on the network and edit it, only the file stored on the network will exist.

No versions datas are stored.

If the same user decide to download the document, open the local copy, edit it then move the edited version to the network, he will have versions-datas as long as he keep the local document which would be ridiculous because he is supposed to know that the document available on the network may be edited by an other user.

If user2 open the edited file and work on it his changes will be stored on the network.

They remain with a single copy.

Nothing changed if we compare to the old scheme.

I wish to add that iWork was never described as a tool designed for collaborative work.

Trying to use it this way is playing with matches.

There is no provision to treat the case of two users trying to work on a file simultaneously.

I was asked several times to build scripts allowing to treat this problem but it seems that none of my attempts were fully satisfactory.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) mercredi 18 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

Without Autosave, to revert to an old state of the file, you had to close the modified document and restart from it's original state.

Now, you close the modified doc and create a new duplicate.

In both cases, you are free to apply undo if you want to remove some changes.

In Snow Leopard it is a simple Revert to Saved… and you know it is the original.

Undo is eratic in what it does or doesn't undo. I don't rely on it. You are afool if you think it is accurate.

The versions aren't stored on the startup HD, they are stored at the very first level on the HD where the file is saved.

If you switch the user account or if you restart from an other HD, no problem. It the file is on a mounted HD, related versions are mounted too.

Not at all complicated and Apple really details all this somewhere. Now let's see where that somewhere is. No… not anywhere I can find.

What about when one of those hard drives or systems is running an older sytem than Lion?

It's really boring to see that you and others are criticing a feature which you didn't tried to study a bit.

I've worked with a stack of files now in Lion and it is mind blowingly difficult to follow. You simply don't know the state of play at any one time.

Again, like most, I am behind on my doctorate on "What Apple has lately changed in Mac OSX - Secrets from the Deep". My spies within the Hidden City of One Infinity Loop are getting on with their lives, as I should be.

About half what is done by the operating system is stored in hidden files since the delivery of OS X.

Older systems used also hidden files but with a smaller extent.

Hidden is good right? So how many hidden things are hidden? The answer is hidden!

Let's just not muck around with all this pretense of "Just works" and "Intuitive". Let's go right back to DOS where what to do and what was happening was virtually always hidden.

What is delivered by Apple is perfect as long as :

(1) we don't delete a file by error

(2) a file is not corrupted for some reason.

Talk about blind faith. Nothing is perfect, definitely not what Apple is cooking up lately. What is worse is you saying, and Apple assuming, that it is perfect. Shades of the anniversary of the sinking of the Titanic. Hubris revisited.

Apple has been sitting on the vunerabilities in OSX for months. The only reason we know about them is the spate of Trojan outbreaks let the cat out of the bag.

Apple is documenting less and less of a User Interface that is increasingly hidden. That is a combination for User mayhem.

That this has caused so much confusion and angst in these forums alone speaks for itself.

This schema is neither obvious, nor fool proof.

Your "explanations" reveal just how complicated Apple's "solution" to a simple auto save has become.

They are your explanations. Apple has provided none, definitely none that the regular user can consult.

Steve Jobs said about PIMs and Smart Phones, if there is a stylus they got it wrong.

If a simple matter of opening and saving files needs this much convoluted explanation without even a hint of resolution, then someone seriously got it wrong.

To compound it, Apple is treating the Mac OSX and iOS as if they are synonymous when often they are not even alike and definitely the iOS system and iOS versions of iWork are totally undocumented.

Peter

ps I am trying unsuccessfully to find the Monty Python sketch of the English private school teacher's instructions to his students on how to hang their coats and hats before class. It is a brilliant parody of how to make the simple ludicrously complicated, then berate the victims for spotting the obvious flaws and contradictions.

PeterBreis0807 wrote:

Because Jerrold we do want to save it in a particular state.

Rubbery is for schmucks.

Which is why banks and similar institutions love having their conditions on the web and your signature on their paper documents. Usually in triplicate.

Peter

So, Bank Rubbery is a crime if you do it to them, but not if they do it to you.

J.

Well I did suggest to my local branch that they should adopt balaclavas as part of their uniform. 🙂

Peter

Jerry, There are times when an applicaiton or OS does more than you want it to (think Microsoft). In many instances you simply do not have to use those features. In some cases you can turn off features in preferences that do not serve your purpose. The autosave/versions scheme can not be ignored or turned off. I want to control what is saved, when it is saved and where it is saved. I understand the risk of perhaps losing a doc to a software shutdown on occassion. However, my macs have been so reliable (to date) that it really has never been an issue. So, I understand why some want and like the new scheme. I simply do not need it or desire it, but it has been imposed on me. In previous versions of OS X there are features that I never used (spaces, widgets, time machine) and Lion has added features that I like (additional trackpad gestures, animations, et. al.). At present, however, I must revert to earlier versions of iWork to avoid autosave (which kills my workflow in keynote) and to retain the simple save/save as scheme that serves my purposes. Generally, I am wary of the fusion of iOS with OS X (especially with regard to file saving), I don't mind the way iOS handles files since I use it to connect me with my work on the Mac. I just don't want that kind of file management system on my Mac. Again, the OS is doing more than I want it to. So, no, I don't want to adjust my workflow to the new OS. It is my understanding that Mountain Lion will modify their scheme a bit and I am looking forward to the new version of iWork just to see what new features it will include.

I don't expect Apple to retreat. My plan is to try to adapt.

Jerry

Nor do I, but us old hippies have to rail against the establishment, even one as hip and cool as Apple, Inc.