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Hi i have a Power Macintosh 9600, which i recently got a new hard drive for as the old one was bust. ive got it now and cant find my OS disks, i cant even remember which OS i had, but im trying to install mac osx from CD on it, and none of the key combinations seem to be working for botting from CD.
also i hear 16 beeps on startup after the chime?
i found troubleshooting for 4 and 8 beeps, but not for 16, the computer was bought "avid ready" for video editing, and i saw one of the problems for 8 beeps involved removing additional memory added after the factory, so perhaps the avid ready upgrades are the cause?
all i can see is the grey screenw ith the floppy, somtimes it has a question mark in it, i think that depends on if i hold down keys.
right ok, ive tryed os9, and ive got it to boot from the CD,
next problem: doesnt detect the HD, and i think its to do with the pin things on the HD?
im used to working with PC's where its nice and simple, slave master etc. this is a little more complicated, on my previous one there were 24 pins (12x2) 2 connecters on the pins 6 & 7 (SCSI TERM ON, and DISABLE UNIT ATTN) so it looks like this:
:::::||:::::
it was a 4GB apple 3.5 inch SCSI
the new one, which i bought off ebay and is according to the description also from a similar mac and compatible with mine is a Seagate 9GB one, except it appears to have an adapter attached to make it SCSI and there are pins on the HD itself and the adapter, with no clear indication of what pins do what. the HD has 20 pins (2x10) with a plastic bit over the first 8 so it looks like this:
[||||]::::::
and on the adapter (which is like a little circuit board plugged on the back which provides the SCSI connector and the power supply connector) there is another set of 16 pins (2x8) labeled: LED, SYN, DLY, MTP, ID3, ID2, ID1, and ID0, with a connector on ID1
i hope i explained that ok, basically i cant just copy how the pins were set on the old HD because there different, but the HD should definatly be compatible, so if anyone could help me out id appreciate it.
It is funny what we call simple. I have had more trouble with master/slave than SCSI. I guess it is just a matter of what you are used to. I am fussing with a new drive that mounted fine on one Bondi G3, then after moving the SCSI card and drive to a different Bondi, the drive has disappeared, even when put back into the first machine. The 50 pin connector works fine with an old drive but the 64 pin connection or drive no longer work. Strange.
Here are some quick questions about your comments and set up. You said it does not detect the drive. Did you go into drive setup or just system profiler?
If Drive Setup does not see the drive, or if it says the drive is not supported, post back for more details.
You mentioned an adapter. The new drive is probably ultra SCSI - or wide SCSI - with a different cable plugin and therefor needs an adapter. Two issues will still be the same for the old and new drives: Termination Power (TP) and SCSI address.
You indicated that termination power was "ON" for the original drive. I believe you should jump the MTP pins on the new drive or adapter to set termination power. It would be best if you posted the make (Seagate)
and model to allow for looking up the drive specs on the web.
If the adapter includes term power, the drive should not also be set to term pwr.
Having the new drive set to ID 1 should not be a problem but you always want to verify the SCSI ID of all devices before adding or replacing any SCSI device.
Actually, you have one of the coolest Macs ever produced, with which you can have a lot of fun. However, unless you're given the stuff (free), to do any upgrade except for minimal costs or as a hobby or even to try to run OS X (assuming that is a good idea, which it isn't), it just makes no economic sense so to do, when you can get a Mac Mini for $500.
Having said that, there is a tremendous amount of low cost to free stuff which you can do with the 9600. There are a lot of freeware/shareware programs still available from various websites for the downloading, which work great and don't need OS X.
OS X is theoretically a completely different operating system (UNIX-based) from the traditional MacOS, which is why the change over is such a big step with all sorts of issues. I think it best to remain with stuff relatively contemporary to your PM9600 for best performance. While a PM9600 can be hacked theoretically to run OS X, the result is just not worth it on several levels.
Unlike most other Macs (and PCs, too), the PM9600 has two separate SCSI buses in it, an internal and an external one, so that theoretically one can daisy-chain 14 different peripheral devices on your 9600 and have them all working at one time! The SCSI drives on your 9600 in their day were the quality drives to have, and in many respects, still are. However, you need to learn how "to do SCSI," in that there are a few rules that must be followed to get everything to work properly.
I think you could still google websites where these rules are set out formally for you to make copies. A rough summary is this:
Each SCSI bus can handle 7 SCSI devices, each bearing an unique SCSI number which has NO NECESSARY relation to the device's physical position in the SCSI daisy chain, if one has multiple devices. By convention, the internal boot hard drive is usually 0 or 1, the CD drive is 3, and the Mac CPU is 7. Thus, when you connect up any additional hard drives, zip drives, scanners, card readers, CD-RW drives, tape drives, etc., each one has to be given one of the other available SCSI numbers. On the 9600, since there are two independent buses, one can actually have two devices, each with the same SCSI number, AS LONG AS one is on the internal bus and the other on the external bus.
How you set the SCSI number depends on the scheme adopted by the device's manufacturer. Easiest are those which have a setting button on the outside of the device. However, the hard drives frequently had a pin system, which typically uses "physical" binary pin settings for 0, 1, 2, etc. Since you have a Seagate drive, Seagate used to have a great website giving all the necessary particulars for configuring their internal hard drives, which I assume is what you have. The external drives are usually easier to set.
The other main SCSI issue is "termination." This has NOTHING to do with SCSI numbers directly, but rather with the device's PHYSICAL position in the SCSI chain. The physically LAST device in the chain has to be "terminated," and all the physically intermediate devices have to be "unterminated." Termination is accomplished electronically by resisters, or something or other like that. On some SCSI devices, the external setting button has two sets of SCSI numbers to choose from, the unterminated set and the terminated set, so one can easily choose what one needs. For internal drives, again, there may be a set of resisters which plug into the "termination port" to terminate the drive, or there may be a set of binary pins which need to be set to engage the termination resisters built into the drive mechanism. This will depend on your particular drive, what scheme the manufacturer used. You'll need to research this out.
Some devices come typically unterminated -- scanners come to mind here. It is possible to buy an external SCSI termination plug which one can use to terminate a SCSI device at the end of the chain which doesn't have built in termination. They are quite cheap (a couple dollars) and plug onto one of the two available SCSI external ports. Otherwise, one can also position the unterminated device ahead of a terminated device in the SCSI chain to achieve the termination.
If you hook up things incorrectly, you will probably NOT damage anything, but things may just not work. Although some people have had problems with SCSI stuff, knock wood, mine have always been plug 'n' play. Even if the termination is wrong, the device may still work properly; termination provents the SCSI signal from bouncing back (echoing) inappropriately, which is what causes the performance problems.
However, whenever you plug and unplug the SCSI cables into the devices, EVERYTHING should be powered down to avoid damage to the device or to the Mac. If a cable comes loose, or you forget, nothing bad will necessarily automatically happen, but just like the ADB connections, it is NOT a good idea to hot plug the SCSI and ADB ports (unlike the USB and serial ports, where one can do it.)
If you have a paddle board attached, that is a very classy SCA-80 [Single Connector Attachment] hot-swap drive. Its 80-pin connector makes and breaks the contacts in sequence as the drive is inserted/removed, to allow it to be plugged/unplugged with the power on.
The SCSI ID is set with the jumpers on the paddle board. Those jumpers provide a binary-encoded number from 0 to 15. Each jumper position counts for a power of 2 -- 8 4 2 1. Yours is currently set to a perfectly acceptable ID=2 with a jumper on the ID1 pins.
SCSI busses can support a dozen or more devices and cable lengths up to six meters. That is not a trivial accomplishment, and there is a little more complexity involved than with IDE drives, but it is generally not overwhelming.
1) You must make certain that each device has a unique ID. The motherboard controller takes ID=7, the Apple CD generally takes ID=3, and the rest are available, with a factory Hard Drive generally being set to ID=0.
2) you must terminate the end of the cable. This can probably be done with a strap setting on your drive, once you find the reference material. There is no termination setting on the paddle board, because drives in this class quickly changed over to using a discrete terminator on the end of the cable. Only the drive at the end OR the physical end of the cable should be terminated. Too few terminators will cause your Mac to hang during startup.
Termination and Termination Power are closely intertwined, but not the same.
The SCSI Bus can have as few as none and as many as 14 devices attached, and can be any length from 0 to six meters. Electrically, this is a very difficult trick.
The way the control signals are implemented, the inactive state is "high" (nominal 5 Volts). When one or several devices want service, they "sink" [connect through a small resistance] the current in the request line to ground. One or several can do this at once without burning anything out. I liken this to pulling the cord on a city Bus to make the little bell ring -- one or several folks can do it at once. But what if there were no return spring on the cord?
When their requests are satisfied, they "let go of the cord" and the request signal floats. Without termination, the request line waffles in the no-man's-land between high and low. The slightest disturbance or noise will send it over the threshold in one direction or the other, causing no end of grief.
To solve this problem, the end of the bus is terminated with a "Pull-Up" resistor network that essentially connects 5 Volts to the bus through a large resistor. Now the signals can be pulled down to the active low state, but when everyone gets off, they will move smartly back to the inactive 5 Volts state and not transition back through no-man's-land due to noise.
The resistor network is passive. It does not have its own independent 5 Volt power supply. To make the terminator able to do its job, one or several of the devices on the bus must supply 5 Volts for the terminator. This Voltage is Termination Power. It is connected onto a wire in the cable reserved for it.
The Termination Power wire (it is not really a signal) is available at every device. It is not the same as the Termination Jumper. The Termination Jumper connects the resistor network of the device in question to the Bus, effectively terminating it.
This post has turned into quite the treatise on SCSI. One caveat on the assumption you made about the paddle board on the back of the drive being 80 pin. My last trip to Seattle netted me three types of SCSI drive, some for Allan J..
I realize that you know this stuff so I post it for the benefit of ChrisJSim since he only identified the back of the drive as having an adapter. I purchased four types from the recycler to accomodate all posibilities.
Chris ---
First point of reference is an IDE ribbon style connector that is 2 inches wide.
Next, the first SCSI connector was 50 pins and 2.5 inches wide (pin width).
Third, 68 pin SCSI connectors are 1.75 inches wide and have a keystone.
Fourth, the hot swap SCSI 80 pin that Grant referred to is 2 inches long, also keystoned but has a center blade with contacts on each side like edge connectors on a PCI card.
As mentioned, you can buy adapters for all types. The paddle adapter for the 80 pin hot swap configuration cost more than the 4 and 9 gig hard drives. Go figure.
Jim
(more detail in your posts lead to shorter answers. We are trying to anticipate your next response. lol : )
Cool explanation of termination power. Like the public transport analogy! I never before understood exactly how termination power worked, and especially why sometimes it had to be enabled or disabled.
