8 Replies Latest reply: Jun 4, 2012 6:52 AM by funky_pat
funky_pat Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

1) UNAUTHORIZED CHANGES DURING RENDER

Sometimes, during or immediately after rendering (i.e. bouncing), the project goes into 'Changed' status (e.g. so if attempting to close the project without saving it, a prompt asks if it should be saved). Whenever this happens, nothing is revealed in the Undo History corresponding with such a change. Nor should there be since no changes should have been made. What does it mean and how can it be prevented?

 

2) VARIED OUTPUT

I noticed that, particularly if some random oscillators are involved, a project can sound slightly different on each play-through. Of course, the project should be played at least once before outputting a render, due to the loading of sounds on the first play-through causing aberrations. But as for the other randomness, what would be recommended for greater consistency in render output?

 

3) AUTOMATION

Curves instead of just straight lines. Possible?

 

4) ERROR MESSAGES THAT WON'T DISAPPEAR

When exporting a project in some formats, an error message may pop up informing that something couldn't be exported for whatever reason. So I hit the OK button - only the message immediately pops up again, and indeed, it pops up after each hit of OK. It seems like nothing else in Logic can be accessed until the error message disappears, even quitting. So it seems that a Force Quit option needs to be used each time this occurs.... Unless, of course, there's a way around the error messages?

 

Thanks.


Logic Pro, Mac OS X (10.6.8), 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
  • funky_pat Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    Just found the answer to #3 as above....

     

    So here's a new question 3:

     

    3) AUTOMATION

    When 'Read' is on, it seems that by default, all automation is on - e.g. Volume, Panning, etc. How about having only some automation on but not others, for a given track? Is there an option for that?

  • Eriksimon Level 6 Level 6 (11,630 points)

    1) Not everything that is in the project file data is also in the undo list. Think of all actions on the channel strip or track headers, such as soloing, muting or moving pan- send- or volume knobs/faders. Unticking the normalize feature when bouncing may count as such a change.

    But, keeping all that in mind, sometimes a project goes into changed state even though nothing's changed. Well, so be it, it is not annoying enough (for me) to make an issue out of. I'd rather be askled a billion times too many to save, then for it to be forgotten only once. On the saving front, Logic appears to err on the side of caution. Good thing.

    2) That inconsistency has to do with the nature of many soft- and hardware synths and all other audio processing equipment and plugins. Having said that, almost no projerct will sound the same twice, especially if any plugin processing is involved that involves any sort of random generation; which, by its' very nature, never (or very, very rarely) repeats. Over on http://www.logicprohelp.com there are some topics on this; expert Ski explains it very well.

    3) Yes. Use the Automation Curve tool (the white arrow with the little tail) from your tool menu. Or, in arrange, hit "A" for Automation View (zoom in vertically if necessary), press shift-ctrl and your pointer will change into the Automation Curve tool.

    4) Unless you are willing to provide some sort of clue as to what the error messages ar actually saying, there is not much I, or anybody else who is not a psychic, can do.

     

    5. It is not very handy to alter the content of your message when people are already replying. No, you cannot have some automation off and others on.

  • funky_pat Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    Thanks for the response.

     

    1) I normally tweak a few settings in the Bounce options, although I don't tweak Normalize (I just leave it as unticked). Nothing outside of the Bounce prompt is voluntarily changed by me during the Bounce procedure. What's strange is that the exact same Bounce procedure may be done (e.g. same settings tweaks on the Bounce prompt, etc.), yet sometimes the project would go into a 'Changed' state, whereas other times it would not. But I guess that any changes that are registered in that case are superficial (not affecting the sound content), so it doesn't really matter.

     

    2) Yeah, I realize that's their nature by default. I was wondering if there might be a way to possibly globally evade per-playthrough randomness to some degree, at least in the built-in Logic-based ones. Some other programs seem to be able to deal with randomness better to provide a more consistent playthrough. The randomness normally isn't too volatile, but greater consistency would be great. Anyway, cheers for the link - I'll check it out.

     

    3) Wow, it's weird if the only options for enabling/disabling automation for a given track are either ALL automation or NO automation.... Although having a horizontal line all the way across a given automation track accomplishes virtually the same thing as no automation, I would have expected a fast way to directly turn only some on and others off for a given track. o__O

     

    4) The error messages seem to relate to not being able to export particular files, when exporting the project in OpenTL format. Here's a map of the error messages and possible options on the prompts:

    'Make a copy of all exported audio files?'

          Yes: 'File "file.ext" couldn't be copied!'

                OK: 'Internal Error - file "file.ext" not found!'

                      OK: Repeats!

          No: 'Audio file "file.ext" will not be exported because it has the wrong format. Please convert it to SD2 format first.'

                OK: Repeats!

    I'm currently looking for a way to get rid of any error message when it pops up without having to Force Quit Logic, rather than a way to fix the issue with the file noted in the error messages.

     

    By the way, I didn't alter the content of my original message. I submitted an amendment in a new post at 1:01 PM, before your response was submitted at 1:18 PM. It's not like I was trying to sneak an edit in.

     

    Again, thanks for the response.

  • funky_pat Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    I have another question: when initiating a Bounce, how can the Start position parameter in the Bounce window be made to automatically adapt the actual Start position value of the project (e.g. 0 4 1 1), rather than reverting to 1 1 1 1 each time? The End position parameter in the Bounce window seems to adapt the actual End position value of the project just fine when initiating a Bounce, so I'm not sure why there would currently be a discrepancy.

     

    -

     

    Btw, on the topic of Logic erring on the side of caution, I think that the following point regarding the undo history undermines that to some degree:

     

    'Not everything that is in the project file data is also in the undo list. Think of all actions on the channel strip or track headers, such as soloing, muting or moving pan- send- or volume knobs/faders.'

     

    The fact that many crucial things like volume changes aren't recorded in the undo history, can not only be a pain in the ***, but it just doesn't make that much sense, especially considering that non-changes are registered as changes. But then again, I haven't come across a DAW with a perfect undo history yet. I'm not sure what's up with DAWs and undo histories. Why can't it work more like a text editor, where all changes are un-doable?

  • Vacheto Level 3 Level 3 (650 points)

    how can the Start position parameter in the Bounce window be made to automatically adapt the actual Start position value of the project

    Set the L/R cycle locators to the start/end places you want to bounce (and activate the cycle - I can not remember that crearly cause I'm away of Logic). Some other DAWs are natively based on this method.

    But then again, I haven't come across a DAW with a perfect undo history yet.

    This is correct. The "Mixing" undo history can not be compared to anything like text editors, piano rolls or other apps. The Mixing is a contilious process controlled by the human creativity etc. For instance, if you want to make  a level fader ramp from say "-10.2dB" to "0db" (which range is equivalent of CC#7 - value 50 - 90) after that you stop for a second and continue the upward ramp - then what the undo history must remember (the whole upward ramp plus the 1sec interruption etc). Technically the undo can be programed to revert by one byte value i.e  90, 89, 88 etc but I guess it is not you want ? Another scenario are so called Mixer Snapshots which can be used as fast undo. The snapshots can be controlled via a single external button using a Program Change or Control change. Logic does not support Mixer Snapshots yet that’s why I developed the Logic Snapshot Console some time ago.

     

    There is one more workaround of “Mixing” undo and it is called AUTOMATION. The Track Automation is recorded in a special folder named “Automation folder” and you can open it via a key-command for “Automation Event List”. So the automation recording creates history and you can undo it!

    For example, if you want to try some Mixing versions (save your project before that) you can enable the channel strip automation and tweak any parameter. If you are not pleased with that mix you can use undo steps to revert the recorded automation parameter by parameter.

    Hope this will give you some basic idea of that.

    Regards,

    A.G

     

    www.audiogrocery.com

    Author of: Logic GUI Deluxe (Free),

    Vox De Bulgaria - s.a.g.e vocal pack for RMX,

    Logic Snapshot Console,

    RMX Power CTRL - Logic Environment Midi editor for Stylus etc.

  • funky_pat Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    Ah, the cycle had to be activated. A minor issue, but it saves having to re-input it each time. Thanks.

     

    Automation is factored into the undo history, yes, but it doesn't seem ideal to use automation everywhere if most automatable things on any given track are constant instead of variable. Anyway, I'll have a look at the tool that you linked to.

     

    Another DAW that I use handles non-automated volume, panning, etc. tweaks (although their undo history is shabby in many other areas; like I suggested, undo history seems to be something that DAWs in general could work on ....). If a Logic Pro developer is reading this, please consider including basic functionality like volume & panning tweaks in the undo history, so that we don't have to rely on workarounds like using automation where there otherwise isn't any need for it.

  • Vacheto Level 3 Level 3 (650 points)

    please consider including basic functionality like volume & panning tweaks in the undo history,

    As I pointed in my previous post it is a continuous processing and it is dependable on the human creativity, so writing any undo history will be a bit little complicated cause the human creativity is not predictable. That’s why I gave an example with making a volume upward ramp, stop for a second after that make a second volume change etc. The undo writing must know what is your idea:

    1. A level upward ramp till the one second interruption.

    2. A level change including the one second pause.

    3. The second upward ramp which is made after the one second pause etc.

    4. Undo by one byte midi value etc.

    5. Fader tweaking time (see below).

    As you see there are lots of undo variations. There is a way of programming and it can be based on the “time” factor.

    Right now I spend lots of time on NI Kontakt scripting (KSP), so I developed something similar which is time based but in my scenario it is not related to the level or parameter changes. I developed dynamic fader labels for the custom KSP UI. The dynamic labels save lots of workspace (EXS parameters use such feature for example). So my programming idea is “time” based. If you tweak a given parameter (fader/knob) the dynamic label appears as a popup value label showing dynamic values like “-6.5dB” etc. If you stop the fader tweaking for say 800ms the dynamic label disappear and revert to a parameter steady label say “LP Filter”. So your idea must be based on some “time” factor but it will not match the human creativity regarding the art of mixing. This is one of the major reasons for any developments. Another programming problem will be getting huge amount of undo history regarding the application resources. For example if you delete a note event in the piano roll or event list it is one undo step. If you make a level ramp from “Inf” to +6db  it will be 128 undo steps (if the programming is value based) etc.

    Hope see what I mean ?

    Regards,

    A.G

     

    www.audiogrocery.com

    Author of: Logic GUI Deluxe (Free),

    Vox De Bulgaria - s.a.g.e vocal pack for RMX,

    Logic Snapshot Console,

    RMX Power CTRL - Logic Environment Midi editor for Stylus etc.

  • funky_pat Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    Thanks for the information. I agree that there could potentially be some issues in incorporating it, but another DAW that I use seems to pull it off fine, and I think that if they can do it without any significant issues, then Logic Pro should too. Regardless of the hurdles to overcome, it's evidently possible without too many hicks, and it's relatively important, so I think that it should be included as a stock feature. Anyway, this seems to be getting somewhat off-topic for this thread. Thanks for the help everyone!