Q: MacBook Pro Retina display burn-in?

While i think the prooved clip in youtube by a user could be falsely prooved by a camera trick cause of the glossy screen by displaying a image of a exterior device on the display, but if true, that IR is there also after restart, it could also be a hardware defect but also a false programed chip. Since battery and condensers are also memory. Eitherway the battery could wrongly still supply energy to the display but also a condenser not fully discharged. What i would like to know is, if a test could be made again by the affected defice without restarting 15 minutes if IR is still present...

michael.ka Germany

I'm back from the Apple Store in Munich and what I saw there made me very uneasy. They had seven Retinas on display. Since the store was packed I only had the chance to test four. All four had LG screens, all four clearly showed signs of image persistence after a mere two minutes. (I just displayed a Safari window and set the desktop background to dark grey. Then I googled for the right Terminal command to determine the display maker, entered it and hid the Safari window when I was done with that. That was always enough for the problem to show up.) The image persistence seemed very uniform to me, i.e. all machines seemed to be affected in the same way,

This makes me suspect there were bad batches of the LG panel particually from some Eurpean sites, because like other people that have posted saying their LG panels were acceptable, my LG panel takes significantly longer to show faint image retention.  Whats weird is that you can select the darkest grey background and it seems to show it more easily as a test then say a similar shaded image used as a background which I can't get to show IR period.  No yellow tint or stuck/dead pixels on my MBPr BTW.

I will see what happens next. The manager told me that they repair devices to fix the issue and that they will certainly test for persistence. I will also be able to check everything in person with a technician before I get the machine back. But it seemed to me that they are basically limited to ordering the spare part (a replacement screen - the whole display assembly including the shell - costs 553 Euro, by the way, the works costs 29 Euro, but I obviously don't have to pay for it) and hoping that it is good.

 

At least this once I will let them repair, but my patience is very limited. According to German law I have the right to withdraw from the contract of purchase if the seller is unable to fix a defect (i.e. I give the machine back and get the money back). I would pain me to do that (the Retina is an awesome machine except for this issue) but I don't have the time and nerves to deal with this crap.

Thats interesting about German law right to withdraw.  Hopefully the panel replacment resolves the issue for you.  These MBPr's are awesome computers to utilize.   I thought the difference in 2.3 to 2.6 Ghz CPU upgrade was worth it as that small difference in speed seems to negate the scrolling pause that occasionally happens when viewing certain web sites.   Best of luck to you on your repair.

Hello,

Here's a quick update on my situation...

After dropping my rMBP off at an authorized Apple dealer this morning for a screen replacement (my only option due to the fact I've had it for well over 14 days now), they called me this afternoon and told me that they weren't able to fix it right now and to come by and pick it up.

Now, this sounds bad, but I'm actually starting to get a bit encouraged. Why? Well, the technician finally confirmed that Apple is aware of this problem and, basically, they just don't have a solution yet, so I should hold off replacing my screen, at least for now, until they have a better idea of what's going on.

First, they're hoping that the issue can be resolved with software, as this would be ideal. I agree, but I find it unlikely. A firmware solution would be more probable if all LG screens were experiencing this issue, but some aren't, so it's unlikely to be a code problem. I'm pretty certain that it's a hardware problem or a manufacturing defect.

Second, although it's easy to see, via a terminal command, which manufacturer's LCD panel is installed in a particular screen assembly once it's part of a working rMBP, there's no easy way to tell when they're just sitting on a shelf in a warehouse with some non-descript replacement part number stamped on them. As such, they can't easily separate the screen assemblies with Samsung LCD panels installed from those with LG LCD panels installed. So, as with the multiple laptop replacements that many of you have been experiencing, it's completely unpredictable. They could replace my screen assembly and it might be Samsung, but it could just as easily be LG, with the problem still there.

So, although this problem is annoying, and totally unacceptable, as long as I know that Apple is working on it, I'm willing to cut them some slack, at least for a few more weeks, to sort this out. If it turns out, as I think it will, to be a hardware issue, I personally would rather just replace the screen assembly rather than wait for a new laptop to arrive, one that might have other defects that my current rMBP doesn't have, and then go through the pain of porting all of my data over to the new one.

Here's what I suggest though...

For the time being, continue discussing and reporting this issue and keeping stats on defective units (i.e. number of bad/good LG/Samsung LCD panels). Keep this thread alive and growing, and keep contacting Apple tech support to complain and maintain visibility for this issue. However, I think we should hold off bringing attention to this in the wider media (i.e. ZDNet, CNN, etc). I'd like to give Apple the benefit of the doubt...at least for a while longer.

Hopefully, this will be fixed soon and we can finally have the defect-free machines that we paid for.

Cheers,

Peter

^ Thats good to hear.

I was reading another online thread http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1422669 which has a poll that interesting enough shows a small percentage of Samsung panels with IR issues also?

The post #15 is similar to what I observed:

Bit of an update that I think is very relevant. After doing this test and getting the IR result I re-read what the original threadmaker posted about the dark grey background being picked.

 

So I ran it again except this time on the LIGHT grey background. After 25 minutes I can detect absolutely no IR at all.

 

This test only seems to work on that particular background in "such and such" a circumstance. Basically I'm saying is that IR is there but its so specific a process to make it show up that in normal life you would NEVER see it.

 

I've been totally happy with my flawless screen until running this test. BUt now that I realise more clearly that this test is so manufactured as to not represent real life conditions I'm starting to think I should just keep it.

BUt depends....on the fence about it.

With the dark grey background I was able to see some IR faintly after 15 to 20 mins, but try a slightly lighter grey background and no IR whatsoever.

High-Death wrote:

 

johns1 and bjiibj,

 

Both seem to suffer from a crisis of double standard. When you say that the array is not pixel by pixel (something pretty obvious) and because of this arangement it would be impossible for this system to be responsible for the IR you are also affirming that the WRONG idea sold here by johns1 cannot be resposible for this phenomenon either, since it also works by AREAS and not pixel by pixel. So lets copy and paste again the document that johns1 has used to justify his idea:

 

Well what we know is that the image rentention occurs on a pixel-by-pixel basis, and that the LCD cells themselves are pixel-by-pixel, but the LED backlighting is not.  I can't see how any theory that doesn't implicate the cells themselves could be correct.

The residual electric charges in question (glossed over previously with the blanket term "electric field") could be on a cell by cell basis, maybe in the transistor array.  Imagine each cell having a tendency (either via the crystals themselves, some property of the structure of the cell, or some property of the transistor array, or some combination of the three) to retain charge when held at a certain voltage, or when the crystal is held in a certain orientation, for a while.  Then the effect would be seen on a cell-by-cell basis.

johns1 wrote:

With the dark grey background I was able to see some IR faintly after 15 to 20 mins, but try a slightly lighter grey background and no IR whatsoever.  

I also saw image retention with a blue background - the default Windows 7 blue background color.  There is definitely a limited range of colors and brightnesses at which the image retention effect is most clearly visible.

johns1 wrote:

 

^ Thats good to hear.

 

I was reading another online thread http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1422669 which has a poll that interesting enough shows a small percentage of Samsung panels with IR issues also?

 

I started that thread over there.  The person you mention in post 15 just received their new rMBP Samsung display today.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=15492782#post15492782

Using the dark gray background and the checkerboard, I can reproduce the IR problem on my rMBP...very clearly...in about 5 minutes.

After about 5 minutes I notice image retention even on the default galaxy background.

bjiibj wrote:

 

Do you have any objective evidence that the yellowish screen was abnormally yellow?  It's hard to tell if the yellow complaint is about personal preference or a real problem with the displays.  I don't know how we'll ever know unless someone with the equipment to do a real evaluation of the screen can do so.

I had a few MBP before and right now I have 17" MBP. When I compare it's screen with LG screen I see a strong yellow color. After calibration nothing changed, it's only getting colder, but white point is still not true white. I don't need any equipment to notice it.

I dont know what to do, my old MBP is so slow but in the same time rMBP is too faulty.

n0vniel wrote:

 

bjiibj wrote:

 

Do you have any objective evidence that the yellowish screen was abnormally yellow?  It's hard to tell if the yellow complaint is about personal preference or a real problem with the displays.  I don't know how we'll ever know unless someone with the equipment to do a real evaluation of the screen can do so.

I had a few MBP before and right now I have 17" MBP. When I compare it's screen with LG screen I see a strong yellow color. After calibration nothing changed, it's only getting colder, but white point is still not true white. I don't need any equipment to notice it.

 

I dont know what to do, my old MBP is so slow but in the same time rMBP is too faulty.

n0vniel,

I only have my pc laptop and my dad's desktop pc with a samsung screen to compare the colour of my LG retina display to, not other macs, but I agree, the colour is just not right. I have tried calibrating it, and yes I can make it cooler, but the white point is definately not right. This is the main reason I have decided to return it. I only have very very slight IR when tested (I would probably never notice it under normal conditions), but the colour issue is enough in itself since I like to do photo editing (albeit non-professionally) in photoshop. I recently started printing a few photos - I need to be able to trust my on screen colours! 

I really didn't know what to do at first - I could return it only to end up with an even worse LG screen if I re-order! But I know that if I keep this and a month or so down the line everyone is getting lovely samsung screens, I am going to be really ******! But having used this MBPr for a few days now, it is going to be so hard to go back to my pc, which is incredibly slow and clunky with only a 13" screen. But I really feel that it will be worth it in the end. Those for whom the 14 day return period has sadly already passed, have to make the best out of the situation and keep waiting and hoping for a good replacement screen or other resolution. But I really believe that if you still have the chance to return and you have ANY doubts at all - about faint IR or yellowness, then just return it now while you can and wait for some solutions to start appearing - which at some point they will have to!

Btw, aren't Apple supposedly releasing a 13" MBP retina in the Autumn? They HAVE to get this sorted before that, or it will be a complete disaster. I'm hoping we will start to hear more from them soon. Thanks to Picnaut for his earlier update on the situation. This is perhaps encouraging!

Bjiibj,

You seem to be talking about the LCD pixels who are activated by electrodes only. The array is not pixel by pixel, it is a line, a cluster. The two electrodes are the ones present in a pixel by pixel basis. Now, these "cells" (how you seem to be calling them so I am using it as well so you know about what part of your text I am referring to) are not auto-illuminated. You seem to be confused about LED backlit LCDs and standard LCDs. There is no image without the LED backlit "light". And the polarization of the pixels occurs when a potential difference is applied, and only then. Even when polarized, they cannot generate any image without the backlit LEDs, the blue LED lighted by the yellow phosphor.

Now, bringing the plasma just for comparison, the same way the scientific paper I liked compared, sometimes when you turn off the plasma you can still see a faint ghost image left on the screen for a while. Do you know what causes this even when the TV is off? the excited phosphors...

Now the most interesting thing is that even though there is a huge amount of people here claiming the LG monitors have a Yellow tint and a shift of the white point (a common problem caused by an unbalanced Yellow phosphor/Blue Led), something directly related to the backlit LEDs, you just seem to force yourself to look over it and ignore the probable relationship between the IR and clear indication of a possible problem with the Yellow Phosphor/Blue Led.

Dpweiland,

I can also see IR on the Galaxy Tab, iPads 2 and 3 and other desktop LED-LCD monitors I have here. I am curious to test the Samsung rMBP display against a dark gray background and restarts like has been done here with the LG one.

High-Death wrote:

 

Bjiibj,

 

You seem to be talking about the LCD pixels who are activated by electrodes only. The array is not pixel by pixel, it is a line, a cluster. The two electrodes are the ones present in a pixel by pixel basis. Now, these "cells" (how you seem to be calling them so I am using it as well so you know about what part of your text I am referring to) are not auto-illuminated. You seem to be confused about LED backlit LCDs and standard LCDs. There is no image without the LED backlit "light". And the polarization of the pixels occurs when a potential difference is applied, and only then. Even when polarized, they cannot generate any image without the backlit LEDs, the blue LED lighted by the yellow phosphor.

 

Yes, I am fully aware that the light emitted by an LCD panel begins at the backlight.  I have never suggested that the LCD cells themselves emit light.  What I am saying is that the crystals themselves twist in the presence of an electric voltage and it is this twisting which is being affected by a lingering charge.  The result is that the crystal doesn't twist as far as it should, or perhaps too far, not sure which, when it is experiencing the image retention problem.  Because of this, too little (or too much) light is being permitted through by the cell, resulting in that pixel emitting light that is brighter or darker than it is supposed to be.  This is image retention.

I am quite confident that if you could remove the backlight of the panel and replace it with a flashlight, you'd still see image retention, because it's not an artifact of the light source, it's an artifact of the crystals not orienting correctly due to a residual electric charge or some other per-cell cause.

High-Death wrote:

 

Now, bringing the plasma just for comparison, the same way the scientific paper I liked compared, sometimes when you turn off the plasma you can still see a faint ghost image left on the screen for a while. Do you know what causes this even when the TV is off? the excited phosphors...

 

Yes, but plasma displays illuminate their phosphors on a per-pixel basis, which is why there can be a difference in the degree to which different phosphors are excited depending on the image that is presented, which itself leads to burn-in when some phosphors are excited much longer than others.

Every phosphor in an rMBP backlight is excited to the same degree as all of the others, barring the rMBP using that "local dimming" technique you referenced, but a) I haven't seen any evidence that the rMBP actually uses that technique, and b) would produce differences in phosphor excitation on large swathes of the screen, not on individual pixel-sized regions.

I took my computer to apple today and try sent it out to one of their repair centers to get te screen replaced. The genius seemed to know about the problem and agreed that he would replace the lg screen with a Samsung one. He said it should be all done in 5-7 days. I'll report back then.

Really? Could you ask the same guy how he would be able to order a Samsung display? It shouldn't be possible, as all of the screens look identical stocked up in a warehouse in China.