Previous 1 2 Next 23 Replies Latest reply: Mar 22, 2014 4:37 PM by andbeonetraveler
andbeonetraveler Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)

Hi.

 

As stated, I have a iMac PPC G4 I'd like to install OS on. I don't particularly care what version...but I have the original 10.1.2 discs.

Problems: the optical drive is finnicky (sometimes worked in the past), the HD has been completely erased, so I can't boot from it now, and I don't have another PPC.

 

I can boot from a 10.4 install disc using my Macbook 5,2 in target disk mode via firewire, but it's unable to complete installation from there. I can't boot at all from any of the 10.1 discs via firewire.

 

 

Can I...

 

-Force the optical drive to open while booted from the 10.4 disc, so I can try giving it some install discs that I hadn't tried in that drive before?

     The regular eject (F12 on my keyboard) button doesn't open the drive. When I run drutil in the terminal while booted from the install disc, it doesn't find any optical drives.

 

-Install from an iPod with a USB connection, a la: http://guides.macrumors.com/Installing_Mac_OS_X_10.4_without_DVD ?

 

-Install from an 8 GB USB drive, as Kappy described here (but didn't work for that user): https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3827056?start=0&tstart=0 ?

 

-In any way install using my Macbook in TDM?

 

-Start the iMac in TDM and install to it from the Macbook?

 

 

Thanks a bunch!


MacBook (13-inch Mid 2009), Mac OS X (10.5.8), Time Capsule 802.11n (1st Gen)
  • Kenichi Watanabe Level 7 Level 7 (30,460 points)

    You can't use a 10.4 installation disc that came with an Intel Mac on a PowerPC Mac.

     

    You can boot from USB on PowerPC Mac, whether it's an iPod, flash drive, or exernal drive that is connected.

     

    You can't use an Intel Mac to install a Tiger system that will be used by a PowerPC Mac.  It may work with Leopard, but not with Tiger.

     

    But, you may be able to do the following.  Start up the MacBook in FireWire Target Disk Mode (it should be connected to a power adapter instead running off its battery).  Insert the 10.1.2 installation disc into the MacBook's optical drive.

     

    Using a FireWire cable, connect the MacBook to the iMac G4, while it is powered off.  Start up the iMac G4 and hold down the Option key before you hear the startup sound.  This should bring up Startup Manager, where you can select to start up from available startup disks.  IF (big "if") the MacBook's optical drive is available to the iMac G4 over FireWire Target Disk Mode, you will see the 10.1.2 installation disc as a choice.  Select it and try to start up from it.

     

    NOTE:  Depending on the Mac model, the opitical drive may or may not be available to the "host" Mac over FireWire Target Disk Mode.

     

    FYI - 10.1.2 is kind of a waste of time.  There is very little software that is compatible with it.

  • andbeonetraveler Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)

    Thanks!

     

    You can boot from USB on PowerPC Mac, whether it's an iPod, flash drive, or exernal drive that is connected.

     

    That's good to know!

     

    But, you may be able to do the following.  Start up the MacBook in FireWire Target Disk Mode (it should be connected to a power adapter instead running off its battery).  Insert the 10.1.2 installation disc into the MacBook's optical drive.

     

    Using a FireWire cable, connect the MacBook to the iMac G4, while it is powered off.  Start up the iMac G4 and hold down the Option key before you hear the startup sound.  This should bring up Startup Manager, where you can select to start up from available startup disks.  IF (big "if") the MacBook's optical drive is available to the iMac G4 over FireWire Target Disk Mode, you will see the 10.1.2 installation disc as a choice.  Select it and try to start up from it.

     

    I did do this, and I could access the discs via the MacBook in TDM, but like I mentioned the 10.1.2 discs were not bootable from there, and the 10.4 disc was bootable but I couldn't install from it. I does seem to have been an Intel/PPC problem, as Kappy pointed out to me earlier today.

     

    BUT not long after posting a friend contacted me with an external optical drive that I was able to borrow. That worked! At first, the 10.1 installation hung at the very end, so then I booted from the 10.4 disc and used disk utility (not available in the 10.1 installer) to erase the drive with the zero-out option selected, then shut down and installed 10.1...which worked.

    FYI - 10.1.2 is kind of a waste of time.  There is very little software that is compatible with it.

    The 10.1 discs are the ones that came with the computer, while the 10.4 disc is...well...not. The computer was running 10.4 when we inherited it from a family member, but very, very slowly. It has 512 MB of RAM, and I'm pretty sure it's the original RAM that came with the computer 10 years ago. So, I wanted to install from the original discs and work with this OS at least until we can install new RAM and check that all the rest of the hardware is working properly. Which leads me to my next two questions, if you're up for it...

     

    -We have a 700 MHz G4 processor, and on our machine, from what I can tell from this page, the RAM is expandable to 1 GB, specifically: "expandable to 1 GB using one user accessible 144-pin PC133 SODIMM (up to 512 MB) and one 168-pin PC133 DIMM (also up to 512 MB)." So, when I go buy RAM, how do I make sure that I get EXACTLY what I need? Just write that down, bring it to the store, and say, I want this precisely? I realize this is a newbie question, and we may have a friend help us get and install the RAM, but still, tips would be appreciated.

     

    -I haven't been able to run the Apple Hardware Test. I have the AHT CD that came with the computer (v1.2), and I also downloaded v1.2.6 here and burned that to a CD. In both cases, when I load the CD into the external optical drive which is connected via a firewire cable (exactly what I used for the install disc), restart, and press and hold C, the computer ignores the CD completely and boots from the HD. Any idea how to fix this? Or, is there another function I can use to achieve the same thing, maybe in single user mode? Or perhaps I should use your earlier tip and boot from a USB...we have an iPod that I could plug in (i.e. something similar to this guide).

     

    I'm totally aware that this is an absurdly outdated machine...such is life on a grad student stipend. I'm hoping it will last us at least 6 months to a year, when we'll likely be buying a new machine. We don't need it for anything special, just internet access and things like Hotmail and Google Calendar...the system requirements for which I need to go look up now.

  • Kenichi Watanabe Level 7 Level 7 (30,460 points)

    I made a typo...  I meant to say "You can't boot from USB on PowerPC Mac, whether it's an iPod, flash drive, or exernal drive that is connected."  Intel Macs can boot from USB or FireWire, but PowerPC Macs can generally only boot from FireWire.  Sorry about that...

     

    Here's another profile page.

     

    http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/imac/specs/imac_700_fp.html

     

    If it currently has 512mb of RAM total, that means it probably has 256mb of RAM in the slot that is hard to access (pre-installed) and 256mb of RAM in the "user accessible" slot.  So by buying a 512mb module, you would be replacing that module, to give you 768mb total.  That should be enough to run Tiger, without having to disassemble the iMac to get to the other slot.

     

    OWC is a Mac-oriented vendor.  For any upgrade for any Mac, you can start here

     

    http://eshop.macsales.com/MyOWC/?StartOver=1

     

    select your Mac model and type of upgrade, and a web page will come up with the exact upgrade products to choose from.  In your case, it actually provides a listing with BOTH types of RAM modules.  Even if you don't get it from them, the product description will have the detailed specs.

     

    http://eshop.macsales.com/MyOWC/Upgrades.cfm?sort=pop&model=143&type=Memory

     

    Regarding the Apple Hardware Test CD, holding down the C key will attempt to boot from the internal optical drive.  Since there is nothing in there, it boots from the internal hard drive.  I would try starting up with the Option key held down.  That should get you to the Startup Manager screen.  If that CD is in the external FireWire drive, it should be listed as a startup disk choice.  Select it and see if it will start up from it.

  • andbeonetraveler Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)

    RAM: great info. Thanks.

    Interestingly, Apple says here that PC100, which is the RAM speed that the G4's had originally installed, "is not to be used with iMac (Flat Panel) computers and may create performance and reliability issues." We have PC100 in both slots--like I said, I don't think it's ever been replaced. I wonder if that's causing trouble? But, maybe it's still worth just replacing the user-accessible module to see if that improves things. I really wish I could run AHT to find out how the RAM is doing...

    Regarding the Apple Hardware Test CD, holding down the C key will attempt to boot from the internal optical drive.  Since there is nothing in there, it boots from the internal hard drive.  I would try starting up with the Option key held down.  That should get you to the Startup Manager screen.  If that CD is in the external FireWire drive, it should be listed as a startup disk choice.  Select it and see if it will start up from it.

    Right, that makes sense. Unfortunately, in both cases, when I select the CD to start up from, the screen blinks for a second and then returns to the screen where I am supposed to choose a startup disc. It does this as many times as I try to choose the CD, until I select the HD and start up from there.

    When I put either CD in the drive, with the computer on and booted from the HD, the CD mounts, and Disk Utility says it's verified. But when I try to select it as a startup disc from system preferences, it doesn't show up. Ideas??

  • andbeonetraveler Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)

    Update: I tried Hoja's reccommendation from this thread using Open Firmware, but in response to

     

         boot cd:\diags

     

    It says:

     

         can't OPEN: cd:\diags

     

    for both CDs.

  • rccharles Level 5 Level 5 (6,655 points)

    When your having proglems booting, use the options key. This will give you what boot media you have to pick from.

     

    Try holding down the option key then power on. This brings up the startup manager. Click on your cd. Click on right arrow key.

     

    --------------------------------------

     

    To surf the web in 10.4.11, I use:

     

    Safari 4.1.3 for Tiger

    http://support.apple.com/kb/DL1069

     

    for PPC

    tenfourfox -- It's a port of the latest FireFox to run on older hardware and software.

    "World's most advanced web browser. Finely tuned for the Power PC."

    http://www.floodgap.com/software/tenfourfox/

    alternative download site:

    http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/37761/tenfourfox

     

    Unfortunately, TenFourFox the PPC version of FireFox is a memory hog.  I had 768meg and my machine was slowing down  ( writing memory to the hd ). I increased to 1gig & saw a noticeable improvement.

     

    /Applications/Utilities/Activity Monitor

     

    Picture 2.png

     

     

     

     

     

     

    You will want to run Safari for 10.4.11 if you have 768 of memory.

     

    Picture 3.png

     

    --------------------------------------------------------------

     

    I'd get the memory from OWC.  They will take it back if there is a problem.

  • andbeonetraveler Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)

    Thanks for the info!!

     

    Re AHT: unfortunately, I did try that. Like I mentioned, when I select the CD to start up from in the Startup Manager, the screen blinks for a second and then returns to the Startup Manager. It does this as many times as I try to choose the CD, until I select the HD and start up from there. Also, when I put either CD in the drive, with the computer on and booted from the HD, the CD mounts, and Disk Utility says it's verified.

     

    Other ideas?

  • rccharles Level 5 Level 5 (6,655 points)

    I modified my prior post.

     

    Found running Safari for 10.4 takes 668meg or so of memory.  Which is under the 768meg of memory.

     

    --------------------------------------------------------------

     

     

    Are you posting from the G4.  It's working so the hardware except for the cd/DVD drive is ok.  Once you have the feel for how the hardware work, hardware tests don't show much.

     

    I made a hacked external dvd/cd drive.  Got an external hd with ata connector inside.  Old exclosure will be fine..  If you need to boot from external it must be fireware.  Take apart.  Pull out hd.  Put in any cd/dvd drive. It won't fit  in case, but who needs case.  You need just the connector.  There are connectors only for $15.  Solvage PC cd/dvd drive.

     

     

    --------------------------------------------------------------

     

    I tend to think dashboard is neat, but not neccesary for my everyday workflow.

     

    it is possible to enable and disable it as needed,

    by entering the following commands into the terminal:

     

    -- To turn Dashboard off:

    defaults write com.apple.dashboard mcx-disabled -boolean YES

     

    -- To turn Dashboard on:

    defaults write com.apple.dashboard mcx-disabled -boolean NO

     

    -- You have to restart the Dock after making either change for it to take effect:

    killall Dock

     

    Bye Bye Dashbaord

    http://www.kainjow.com/kermitsoft/downloads.html

     

    Disable Spotlight, Bonjour and Dashboard:

    http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=8749558#8749558

  • andbeonetraveler Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)

    Yet another update:

    I tried the command from this article in Open Firmware:

     

    boot cd:n,\\:tbxi

     

    Replacing n with numbers 0-20. No luck.

  • andbeonetraveler Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)

    rccharles wrote:

     

    I modified my prior post.

     

    Found running Safari for 10.4 takes 668meg or so of memory.  Which is under the 768meg of memory.

    Awesome, thanks.

    Are you posting from the G4.  It's working so the hardware except for the cd/DVD drive is ok.  Once you have the feel for how the hardware work, hardware tests don't show much.

    Nope, I'm on my macbook. Using Internet Explorer in 10.1 on the iMac, I was able to access some sites (main apple page, Google calendar) but not others (apple support pages, Hotmail). Software Update and Mail for some reason don't want to connect to the internet.

    I made a hacked external dvd/cd drive.  Got an external hd with ata connector inside.  Old exclosure will be fine..  If you need to boot from external it must be fireware.  Take apart.  Pull out hd.  Put in any cd/dvd drive. It won't fit  in case, but who needs case.  You need just the connector.  There are connectors only for $15.  Solvage PC cd/dvd drive.

    I'm using an external optical drive connected via firewire right now, which is exactly the same thing I used to install. Any reason a hacked drive would work for this and the external I have wouldn't?

     

    I have been thinking about going out and getting a firewire capable external HD (because I need one anyway). Is it possible that a disc image on an external HD would work where the external optical doesn't?

     

    OR is there a way to test the non-HD hardware parts from the terminal, single user mode?

     

    Or another way to force boot from Open Firmware?

     

    I would just really like to get an idea of how everything is doing after 10 years of use (and about 8 failed installs and 20 restarts in the past few days). I don't really care about having the internal optical drive working, but before I go and upgrade the OS and software, I'd like to know if the logic board, HD, airport card, and particularly the RAM sticks are working properly. (We'll replace the user-access RAM anyway, but it would be good to know how the other one is working, as apple claims the original RAM in these computers is problematic.)

     

    Maybe ProcessViewer would give me an idea about the RAM?

  • Kenichi Watanabe Level 7 Level 7 (30,460 points)

    When started up normally, with the old Mac OS X, run System Preferences.  With the Apple Hardware Test CD inserted in the external FireWire optical drive, go to the Startup Disk pane.  Does that disc appear as a startup disk choice.  If so, select it and try to start up from it. 

     

    It's possible that the Apple Hardware Test CD will only start up your iMac from the internal optical drive.  It only has a very minimal "system" on it (just barely enough to boot and run the tester), and it is only intended to test the Apple hardware, so it may be designed to only boot from the built-in optical drive.  You were able to startup from the FireWire optical drive using the Mac OS X installation disc (to install the current system), so booting from the external FireWire drive does (normally) work.

     

    When booted from the old version of Mac OS X, is there a specific problem that you are trying to trouble-shoot?

  • andbeonetraveler Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)

    When started up normally, with the old Mac OS X, run System Preferences.  With the Apple Hardware Test CD inserted in the external FireWire optical drive, go to the Startup Disk pane.  Does that disc appear as a startup disk choice.  If so, select it and try to start up from it. 

    Nope, it doesn't show up. I think I read somewhere that it's not supposed to though, since it doesn't really have an OS on it.

    You were able to startup from the FireWire optical drive using the Mac OS X installation disc (to install the current system), so booting from the external FireWire drive does (normally) work.

    So is it worth trying to boot from a disk image on an external HD via firewire?

    When booted from the old version of Mac OS X, is there a specific problem that you are trying to trouble-shoot?

    No, just general slowness (also some web pages not loading, other apps not connecting to the internet, as I mentioned above). I don't know if these issues are because of an old OS, slow processor/minimal RAM, or faulty hardware somewhere. I'd like to know what I can fix and what I can't. Basically, if I'm going to put in the effort to install new RAM, upgrade the OS, etc., I'd like to know what I'm dealing with.

     

    Other ideas? Tx!

  • Kenichi Watanabe Level 7 Level 7 (30,460 points)
    So is it worth trying to boot from a disk image on an external HD via firewire?

     

    You can't boot from a mounted disk image, no matter where it is stored.

    No, just general slowness (also some web pages not loading, other apps not connecting to the internet, as I mentioned above).

    10.0 and 10.1 were not very well optimized yet, so it tended to feel sluggish, even in general use.  You should think of 10.0 and 10.1 as "Mac OS X beta."  Apple had Mac OS 9 installed on those Macs as the default OS (the one you saw when you started it up for the first time), along with Mac OS X as the "alternate," because for most people, Mac OS X development was not sufficiently advanced at that point, and important software (such as Photoshop and Office) were not available for Mac OS X yet.  It wasn't until 10.2 that Apple made Mac OS X the default OS on new Macs.  Even then, most Mac users did not fully "switch" to Mac OS X, until 10.3 and 10.4. 

     

    Web pages not loading is probably due to using a very old browser; there are no current, or even recent, browsers that are compatible with 10.1.  Those are software issues, not hardware issues...

     

    As a better "test" for that Mac, you may want to try installing Mac OS 9.  With Mac OS 9, there is a lot more old useful software, because Mac OS 9 was the latest and greatest Mac OS release for a LONG time.  You can give it a better "workout," and it will feel more "snappy." There is free third-party general hardware tester

     

    http://www.micromat.com/downloads/techtool-lite-3-0-4

     

    and even some applications that are currently being maintained, such as

     

    http://www.floodgap.com/software/classilla/

     

    The original discs that came with that Mac should have included an installer for Mac OS 9.  If you can't find it, since you have a version of Mac OS X installed, you can try using this method to install a Mac OS 9.2.2 system folder

     

    https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/macos9/nR2QQCKaCFA

     

    (9.2.2 is the last version of Mac OS 9.)

     

    NOTE:  512mb of RAM should be adequate for running Tiger.  You may want to get a retail installation disc for Tiger, and see how it runs, without any hardware upgrades.

  • andbeonetraveler Level 1 Level 1 (30 points)

    Fabulous, thank you. I do have the OS 9 install disc (amazingly, I seem to have every disc the computer originally came with) so I'll install that and try some of these tests.

     

    In the meantime, I did run memtest from single user mode, after doing fsck, twice, with the following commands:

     

    ./memtest all 3

     

    ./memtest 256 -l

     

    Both times I ran into a kernel panic (message "panic: we are hanging here...." and it freezes). Unfortunately I don't have a log file to show you since I had to shut it down manually.

     

    Any idea what that means?

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