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n-tuplets

I've tried to use odd tuplets, quintuplets. I enter them in score mode. The are notated correctly, but when they play back, they play incorrect rhythms. Is there something I need to do to make them play back correctly?

Thanks,
John

eMac, Mac OS X (10.4.3), Logic Pro 7.1

Posted on Mar 26, 2006 8:14 PM

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14 replies

Mar 26, 2006 9:37 PM in response to Justin C

Thanks Justin,
I've actually done that. I drag the N-tuplet to where I want. I enter in the notes. The score will show a nice neat quintuplet or septuplet. However, It doesn't play a quintuplet or septuplet. I will play an incorrect rhythm, like 4 16ths and an eighth. It's very frustrating, because the score is correct, it's just doesn't sound correct.

thanks,
John

Mar 26, 2006 9:41 PM in response to jmazz

the n-tuplet feature is for score display and print only. it won't re-quantize the midi notes. there are some basic odd quants in the quant menu. to do anymore you have to shift 'em 'round manually. the quant engine needs to be improved so you can program stuff like 13:8, 11:2, 7:12, etc., easily.

G4 450DP Mac OS X (10.4.4) digidesign, motu, apogee

Mar 27, 2006 2:08 AM in response to quadrupolesmurf

Quadrupolesmurf, you've been down graded to dipolesmurf.....

I've reconsidered and it does work. I made a 4 bar sequence at 60bpm that had a bar of 3:4, 5:4, 7:4 and 9:4 (all with the 4 as the 1/8 note). However, it is a bit finicky. I think the first note should be a 1/16th note (in my case), then drag the n-tuple over the note. Then select the tuple that you want. Now fill in the tuple. Sometimes it would generate complete nonsense even when the notation was correct, I am not sure why. After playing with it a bit, I got all the 4 bar sequence to play the correct notation.

John, try doing something basic like create a 4:3 rhythm with a ES1 hihat.

Dual 1.8Ghz G5 PB G4 1Ghz LP7.1.1 Motu 896 Mac OS X (10.4.5) Reaktor 5.1 Reason 3.0.4 Live 5.0.2 Battery 2.1.1 Recycle 2.1 DFH 1.5.3

Mar 27, 2006 5:06 AM in response to quadrupolesmurf

yes you're nearly there.

to do the custom n-tuplets with playback:

- create a midi region on an empty track. give it the name of the tuplet eg 7:16 or whatever.
- open the matrix editor and manually insert all the notes in the correct position. (there are other ways to do this which can be quicker but i didn't want to confuse the issue.)
- then select the region and create dna groove in options in the main menu in arrange.
- the tuplet will then be available to quantize your passage.

logic score philosphy check:

there are 2 types of quantize in the score editor in logic you are probably already becoming aware of. first is display quantize, and the other is physical quantize.

display quantize will only change (generally to simplify) how the passage is displayed, in order to preserve the "feel" of the performance. physical quantize is what you use to actually change the notes position in time as you generally would with other editors. therefore changing the display quantize will not change how the notes playback.

the great thing is that you can set as many midi regions with as many different settings as you like all on the one track and it will look right when you print the score. believe me this is a brilliant trick. and very easy and quick to do in general work flow.

Mar 27, 2006 5:46 AM in response to Rohan Stevenson1

Thanks for the workflow tips, but I have a few questions. Is your method more for quantizing already recorded midi? or for writing from 'scratch' in the score editor?

- open the matrix editor and manually insert all the
notes in the correct position. (there are other ways


How do you do this for 7:16? This isn't obvious to me unless I crank up the quantize grid and break out a calculator.

Why not just write them in the score, then create a dna groove from that?

Also, when I started from scratch and wrote notes in the score they sometimes played correctly, and sometimes they would play incorrectly. I think when I wrote in the first note as a 1/16 then put the n-tuple on it, I think that fixed the problem. Is that total nonsense?



Dual 1.8Ghz G5 PB G4 1Ghz LP7.1.1 Motu 896 Mac OS X (10.4.5) Reaktor 5.1 Reason 3.0.4 Live 5.0.2 Battery 2.1.1 Recycle 2.1 DFH 1.5.3

Mar 27, 2006 7:55 AM in response to quadrupolesmurf

i write almost always from scratch in the score editor. and i step time almost always. so my method is for making the performance sound right and also to speed up correct display of complex n-tuplets.

How do you do this for 7:16? This isn't obvious to me unless I crank up the quantize grid and break out a calculator.


don't use a calculator, musicians don't when performing them. go by eye and using modifier keys for fine control sliding the notes around in the matrix. there are ways of making it exact, but exact enough should be enough.

if you don't plan to use many n-tuplets, don't use this method. instead, assign key commands for nudging notes. i use nudge by +/- 1 frame and +/- 1/2 frame is sufficient, plus it is useful for my media work. my example of 7:16 isn't really a good one is. lets say 7:8. i would then step time 4 quavers and then a crochet triplets, and nudge the notes around visually in matrix, or if it wasn't displaying right and i wasn't to fussed about how the performance of it sounded, i would nudge them in score.

Why not just write them in the score, then create a dna groove from that?


simply because it easier to see the exact positions with relation to the beat in matrix. this is the great advantage logic has over dedicated notating programs, these various methods of editing. it creates so many neat efficient, time-saving (and for me most importantly) brain-saving work-flows.

Also, when I started from scratch and wrote notes in the score they sometimes played correctly, and sometimes they would play incorrectly. I think when I wrote in the first note as a 1/16 then put the n-tuple on it, I think that fixed the problem. Is that total nonsense?


yep. 'fraid so. putting an n-tuplet on the notes will not change their position in time. logic is aware of what position in time they should be, but won't actually change them for you, and that's probably a good thing since often these things are performed by musicians inexactly. you might expressively stress the first note or a note approached by leap, depending on the character of the music. it might also get annoying if logic "helpfull" shunts the notes into positions you don't intend because it thinks you want it quantized. in any case that is what the dna groove templates are for.

in my head, i like to make the distinction between "display" and "physical position" within score. this particularly important when you are assigning marks of expression or moving them around. if you don't get their midi positions exactly right before adjusting their visual position you will get a mess when you are formating your score. boy - i learnt that the hard way. big tip that one. keep your hair.

Mar 27, 2006 8:26 AM in response to quadrupolesmurf

How do you do this for 7:16? This isn't obvious to me
unless I crank up the quantize grid and break out a
calculator.



Enter 7 normal 16ths notes. Limit your midi region to these 7 normal 16th notes. Hold down option and click, hold and drag the right hand border of the region until it equals a quarter note (four 16th notes). The region of 7 equally placed notes with be time streched into the length of a quarter - WaaLaa: 7:16



Why not just write them in the score, then create a
dna groove from that?


Again careful of the display quantization vs. midi quantization.

Also, when I started from scratch and wrote notes in
the score they sometimes played correctly, and
sometimes they would play incorrectly. I think when I
wrote in the first note as a 1/16 then put the
n-tuple on it, I think that fixed the problem. Is
that total nonsense?



It's the way the display quantization and the midi quantization react together.

Mar 29, 2006 1:50 PM in response to jmazz

there are 960 divisions in a quarter note in logic. just get a calculator out and do the math.....
really, come on. logic should do the math for you.
work arounds are just that.
solutions are in order.
logic quant grids are inadequate. period.
hi rohan. howard is still control here. we have serious race problems and to top it off we get a visit from tony blair.
i thinking of moving to antarctica.

G4 450DP Mac OS X (10.4.4) digidesign, motu, apogee

n-tuplets

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