Does 60p Footage In 24p Project Look The Same As 24p Footage?

Question

Does 60p Footage In 24p Project Look The Same As 24p Footage?

I've spent the past hour looking here and on the net for this info and am surpirsed I can't find it. Most of the info I find pertains to how good slowing down 60p footage looks at 24p or 30p. That's not my question though so I'll give some back story. I'm a professional audio post re-recording mixer, not a film/video editor. My down time at home isn't audio though, it's editing intricate home movies cut to video. I use to bounce back and forth between FCP and iMovie, but have stuck with FCPx since it came out. My newest Sony shoots 60p but I had stayed away from it for two reasons. One was that I like the 24p look. The second was that FCPx didn't natively handle 60p when it first came out. I'm not fully happy with some of the jittery scenes when shooting 24p though, and I know FCPx will now easily handle 60p so I'm thinking of shooting our next vacation that way. I understand the math behind dropping frames when the 60p footage is used in a 24 or 30 fps project, and I understand how and why the slow-mo looks nice. I also understand the footage may look better with lower light at a slower frame rate. But before I test this myself, I'm curious what the 60p footage looks like in a 24p project when played at normal speed. Being the shutter opens so many more times per second, I'm assuming the blurred "film look" of motion isn't present, but will the footage of medium/fast pans that looked smooth when shot at 60 fps now look jerky once played back at 24 fps, like some 24p footage does? Or for that matter, if the project is 24p, does 60p footage look better at all or is it irrelevant unless using it for slo-mo? Thanks guys.

Posted on Aug 17, 2012 7:22 PM

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Answer 1

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,815 points

Aug 17, 2012 7:32 PM in response to Michele Gardner

In my view 60p does nothing for if you're going to edit in a 24p project and not use it for slomo. Basically the app is dumping some frames and doing frame blending, which gets you back to the 24p. You just use your chips faster. Generally 60p is a waste unless you're conforming it for slomo, or you're going to deliver 60p for sports.

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Answer 2

Aug 17, 2012 7:37 PM in response to Tom Wolsky

I almost put your name in the Subject, Tom. 🙂 I knew you'd be able to shed some light so thanks. I will be using slo-mo so I know I'll at least get that benifit, but if you're not seeing a difference, can I assume the jittery pans would still be present? Nothing really plays back at 60p - would you suggest a 30p project instead?

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Answer 3

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,815 points

Aug 18, 2012 12:43 AM in response to Michele Gardner

30p would be better. The application then simply dumps every other frame of the 60p media unless you conform it for slomo. I'm not a big fan of 24p, especially on cameras that actually shoot 59.94 and 29.97 and add pulldown to create the 24p effect.

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Answer 4

Aug 18, 2012 7:21 PM in response to Tom Wolsky

Thanks again, Tom. I'll need to do some test to see the difference I was wondering about to see what fits me best.

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Answer 5

Aug 18, 2012 11:12 PM in response to Michele Gardner

Michele Gardner wrote:

… need to do some test to see the difference …

just to add as a grain of salt:

'24p gives a cinematic look' IS A MYTH.

(in case this is what you like to accomplish)

'cinematic'

… means tons of motion-blurr, instead of that 'super sharp 1/4000th speed'.

… means depth-of-field, instead of that 'crisp from nose to horizon' done with tiny sensors.

… means photography, perfect light, designed contrast, clever composition.

converting 'electronic' recordings to 24p doesn't give .... nothing. 😉

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Answer 6

Aug 19, 2012 7:50 AM in response to Karsten Schlüter

Thanks, Karsten. I've enjoyed shooting in 24p for the "film look" of motion blur. Everything else can be created with lenses, settings and creativity. I realize I'll lose the motion blur by shooting in 60p and editing at 24 fps, but the change could be nice. What's been driving me nuts is what a medium speed pan looks like when shot in 24p, so I'm curious if a medium speed pan shot in 60p but edited in a 24p project will still have that studdered look. If it does, I'll probably edit at 30 fps instead (29.97). I see no point in editing at 59.94 being I can't really play that back anywhere conviently. Being I lose the motion blur by shooting 60p, the only reasons I would choose to edit at 23.98 over 29.97 would be file size and the ability to have longer, perfectly smooth slo-mo shots. If edting at 23.98 is going to create jittery pans though, I would edit at 29.97.

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Answer 7

Aug 19, 2012 8:06 AM in response to Michele Gardner

Michele Gardner wrote:

… What's been driving me nuts is what a medium speed pan looks like when shot in 24p, so I'm curious if a medium speed pan shot in 60p but edited in a 24p project will still have that studdered look. …

it's not the pan-speed, nor the frame-rate that causes stutter - it is the angle-speed of objects + shutter speed, I try to explain:

top: a fast moving object OR slow frame-rate (but high shutter-speed = crisp frame)

bottom: slow object OR fast frame rate ...

the so-called angle-speed is in Top too high = the eye can not smooth the 3 diff. frames to a single movement = stutter.

in lower pic, angle speed is low, or we use a much faster frame rate = the difference per frame is less = no stutter = smooth movement.

you can create smooth movements by simply lowering shutter speed (with 24, 25, 30, 60fps):

same angle-speed, but motion-blurr (due to slower shutter-speed such as 1/30th, 1/50th....)

= no stutter, the eye gets tricked, the 'smear' smoothens the movement.

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Answer 8

Aug 19, 2012 8:52 AM in response to Karsten Schlüter

Thanks again, Karsten. Maybe its my camera. When I shoot 24 fps, sometimes a medium-fast pan across non-moving landscapes studders. These are daytime shots with a 1/48th shutter. This only happens when shooting 24p.

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Answer 9

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,815 points

Aug 19, 2012 9:01 AM in response to Michele Gardner

That's typical of 24p media. Panning is really a no-no because of the stuttering.

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Answer 10

Aug 19, 2012 9:33 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

That's what I thought too, Tom. What I need to see now is if the studder is created by shooting 24p or if I'll still get the studder by editing at 23.98 with 60p footage, in which case I'll edit at 29.97. I now know you stay away from 23.98 and would just edit at 29.97, but do you prefer to shoot 30p or 60p, Tom? I 100% agree that shooting "24p" when the camera is actually shooting 59.94 and 29.97 and adding pulldown is useless.

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Answer 11

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,815 points

Aug 19, 2012 9:37 AM in response to Michele Gardner

I prefer 720p60.

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Answer 12

Aug 19, 2012 11:01 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

I prefer 720p over 1080i, but I do like 1080p. Do you ever bother to edit at 59.94?

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Answer 13

Tom Wolsky

Level 10

152,815 points

Aug 19, 2012 11:05 AM in response to Michele Gardner

Sure. If everything is 720p60 i edit that. I don't do a lot of slomo, and I like the crispness of the high frame rate. Works very well on DSLRs where the focus creates depth blur, while objects in motion remain crisp.

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Answer 14

Aug 19, 2012 11:27 AM in response to Tom Wolsky

If only the Apple TV would play it 🙂
I wish I could go with a DSLR because of that very reason, but it's not in the cards for the family.
I'll report back at some point with my finding on doing the specific test I was intereested in, perhaps with some links to examples.

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Answer 15

Aug 29, 2012 6:07 PM in response to Michele Gardner

Alright, this makes the most sense. I was talking to a producer from one of the major networks and pointed out that the specific issue I'm having is actually with the camera chip, not actually a 24 fps issue. Based on what I'm seeing, sometimes but not always, this makes a lot of sense. I asked why his stuff and a lot of tv in general, especially primetime, is shot in 24p. His response was because the look you get with motion blur and every thing else assosiated with 24 fps is preferred. She shoots slo-mo in 60p. In case anyone is curious, in a lot of cases, the edit sequence is 29.97 DF even though the footage is 23.98. In many cases though, the sequence is 23.98 and the conversion process is then done in duplication, so they can retain a 24p edit master. I'm 90% sure that my next edited vacation movie will be shot in 60p though.

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