24P to MINI DV - PLEASE-HELP-ME

Question

24P to MINI DV - PLEASE-HELP-ME

So i've been camped on this board for one week reading everyone's 24P problems. I havent' found the exact answer so please point me in the direction! (thanks ahead of time)

I have a feature film shot on 24P AND 29.97. I captured @ 29.97 and edited the whole thing. Looks great. Plays great.

NOW, when I go to tape i get the flickers...real bad.
My editing Timebase: 29.97

I even put it through CINEMA TOOLS and REV. TELECINE (which knocked it down from 17GB to 12GB).

AM I DOING THIS RIGHT? How do I get it on tape minus the flickers? (It even flickers if I try to put the REV. TELECINE on tape.)

This will eventually be going on DVD...so does this matter?

A MILLION THANKS. I love this board.

Dual G-5, Mac OS X (10.4.4)

Posted on Apr 6, 2006 12:51 AM

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Answer 1

Apr 6, 2006 2:03 AM in response to Joshua Chamberlain

Joshua,

My assumption is that you are trying to eliminate the 24p look (which you are referring to as "the flickers") and have the look be the same as your 29.97 footage. Is this correct?

If so, my understanding is that when you shoot in 24p, the camera (I assume the dvx) records 24 FPS, but does the pulldown in camera to have it run at a 29.97 FPS rate on tape. Because of this, to my knowledge, it would be impossible to truly emulate a 29.97 look because the extra frames just do not exist.

If consistency is what you are going for, I would recommend trying to take your 29.97 footage and reverse telecine that instead (to match the 24p look).

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Answer 2

Apr 6, 2006 6:45 AM in response to Joshua Chamberlain

The camera section works at 23.98, but a DV deck will only record at 29.97, so it inserts the pulldown between the camera and the deck.

Even though, technically, you recorded at 29.97, you shot at 23.98, so those other 6 frames do not exist, like the previous poster stated. I guess I'm just rephrasing what they said.

The flicker is probably just the typical 24p cadence, which is why most people shoot 24p. It's possible your footage has some camera moves and action that are a little too fast for 24p, which would make the flicker more noticeable and not as desireable.

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Answer 3

Apr 6, 2006 8:05 AM in response to Joshua Chamberlain

Joshua - do you mean that you ran the final film thru Cinema Tools?

That could be problematic because unless you ensured that the pulldown was always lined up at the cut points (an A frame ALWAYS cut to a B frame, a C frame ALWAYS cut to a D frame, etc), Cinema tools just takes the same cadence and runs it thru the entire clip. So, it would be removing non-pulldown frames and leaving pulldown frames behind and would make a real flickery mess...

Patrick

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Answer 4

Apr 6, 2006 11:08 AM in response to Joshua Chamberlain

What camera did you shoot on? This is important because different companies have different algorithyms when it comes to 24p.

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Answer 5

Apr 6, 2006 5:08 PM in response to enzo@gvstudio

Camera Used: PANASONIC DVX100A

Action moves are static and not jerky.

I put the QT file I exported off the sequence and sent it through CINEMA TOOLS and got the .REV file. I then took that QT file and printed to tape. I got the blue flickers while watching it through my GL1. I just realized I should try printing it to tape through my PANASONIC. I'm going to try that FRIDAY (if that even works).

Basically I'm trying to get rid of these flickers....I know it's dropping frames. and i don't understand the pulldowns.

THANKS BOARD

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Answer 6

Apr 6, 2006 5:22 PM in response to enzo@gvstudio

If consistency is what you are going for, I would
recommend trying to take your 29.97 footage and
reverse telecine that instead (to match the 24p look).

Even when i reversed telecine and it turned everything into 24P I still got the flicker when exporting it to tape. Should I export through a tape deck? DA#N YOU 24P!!!

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Answer 7

Apr 6, 2006 5:28 PM in response to Joshua Chamberlain

If you are going to tape DO NOT REVERSE TELECINE. The deck/camera you use does not matter.

Just print/edit to tape. Tapes run at 29.97. So does your sequence.

Post back,

Patrick

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Answer 8

Apr 6, 2006 6:34 PM in response to Patrick Sheffield

If you are going to tape DO NOT REVERSE TELECINE. The
deck/camera you use does not matter.

Just print/edit to tape. Tapes run at 29.97. So does
your sequence.

Hey PATRICK,

The sequence contains 29.97 footage (from a 24P tape). When I PRINT TO TAPE i still get the flicker. It seems like it's dropping frames or something. THANKS PATRICK.

Josh

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Answer 9

Apr 6, 2006 7:01 PM in response to Joshua Chamberlain

Are you observing this on a tv/monitor? When you play back the sequence on the tv/monitor, do you get flicker? Please elaborate on this flicker.

Patrick

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Answer 10

Apr 6, 2006 7:07 PM in response to Patrick Sheffield

Are you observing this on a tv/monitor? When you play
back the sequence on the tv/monitor, do you get
flicker? Please elaborate on this flicker.

The flicker does occur both on the DV CAM (GL1) and a TV monitor. While playing the video it will go to BLUE and then back to video. I do have stills in the movie and they play out perfect! it's only when it goes to VIDEO.

Thanks again.

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Answer 11

Apr 6, 2006 7:39 PM in response to Joshua Chamberlain

Does it always flicker in the same area? Could it be caused by overdriven luminance or chroma?

If you export the problem area as a quicktime, does it flicker there? What if you import it and try sending that to tape?

Patrick

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Answer 12

Apr 6, 2006 7:59 PM in response to Patrick Sheffield

Does it always flicker in the same area? Could it be
caused by overdriven luminance or chroma?

Definitely not. The chroma's and luma's are ok.

If you export the problem area as a quicktime, does
it flicker there?

The problem area is the ENTIRE MOVIE. FROM start to finish. Flickers the whole way through *Except on stills that I made of the movie.*

What if you import it and try
sending that to tape?

I've exported the whole thing to one large QT file. And imported it. Still flickers.
I've exported the whole thing and REV TELECINE to 24P. Brought it into the timeline and STILL flickers.

LET me try messing with the sequence settings and using a 24P Camera. I'll let you know the results.

THANKS PATRICK>

Dual G-5 Mac OS X (10.4.4)

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Answer 13

Apr 6, 2006 8:05 PM in response to Joshua Chamberlain

There's no such think as a 24P camera/deck.

Does the Quicktime file flicker when you play it back in QuickTime Player? Can you post a short segment compressed of a few seconds of this flicker.

Patrick

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Answer 14

Apr 6, 2006 8:12 PM in response to Patrick Sheffield

There's no such think as a 24P camera/deck.

I was going to use my 24P camera to feed thevideo feed to my monitor.

Does the Quicktime file flicker when you play it back
in QuickTime Player? Can you post a short segment
compressed of a few seconds of this flicker.

The file DOES NOT flicker on my computer. Absolutely no problems. No problems in the timeline and plays in canvas great. Sounds and looks great.

It would take me some time to show you this flicker. I would have to record it on a tape and re-capture it.

Basically, the video plays then drops out...blue...back on....3 seconds later...drops out again. When I play normal footage (stuff I've done before) it feeds through my camera perfect....no flickers. NADA.

*Falls off computer chair and grabs chest.

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Answer 15

Apr 6, 2006 8:24 PM in response to Joshua Chamberlain

I meant - as far as any camera/deck is concerned 24P is just a look. Like using a warm filter.

And you are SURE your sequence is 29.97? Have you tried using the Easy Setup of NTSC DV?

This sounds like the signal to the deck is dropping out.

Patrick

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