23.98 fps Vs. 24 fps vs 29.97 fps

There is nothing specifically professional looking about any of the formats you list. They're all DV. Your choice will depend on what your final format is. Professional is largely to do with how well things are lit and how good your camera work is. That said, if you're making something for broadcast and want a "film look", probably 24P (NOT 24PA) is what you are looking for.

That is recorded at 29.97 and should stay that way. It is 24fps with a pulldown added. This is exactly like all Hollywood films you have ever seen. Don't capture it at anything other than standard DV 29.97 and edit it that way too.

Patrick

99% of "film look" is proper lighting nd exposure. This forum is not really the place to define pulldown beyond that video is 29.97 and film is 24. Extra video frames are added to make up the difference. They're duplicate frames, following one of two cadences, depending on what your final outcome is- back to film or not.

Recording video at 24 is really a sort of cheat to try to get the video to duplicate the effects of the slower film rate.

You want some interesting reading? Google up Doug Trumbull and Showscan.

However, most broadcasters specify constant cadence for the 3:2 pulldown, which is something the edit 24p as normal DV won't give you. I really see no major reason not to shoot 24pA, edit in a 23.98fps timeline and add 3:2 pulldown for output, if necessary, at the end. It saves disc space, gives faster renders, gives for easier integration of sfx, you're working in progressive which is easier, can make a 24p DVD, will have constant cadence going back to tape etc. etc. etc.

Graeme

Because if you don't know what you're doing you can seriously mess things up. Too often with advanced pulldown, there are problematic clips that don't get their pulldown removed. Then users are trying to deal with a mix of frame rates, etc...

As to the cadence specified by broadcasters, I've cut probably over 500 commercials 99.9% shot on film with 3:2, edited with no attention paid as to the A/B/C/D frame relationships, and never had one turned back because of cadence error.

I still say, if you're just looking for a Film Look, shoot 24P, edit at 29.97 and be happy.

Patrick

I'ts more for drama that commercials. If you have a cadence change on edit, it can make for momentary freekouts on progressive displays, and confuse the **** out of standards converters....

I understand that people can muck up 24pA, but people can muck up anything if they try hard enough.

Graeme

More for drama then commercials? Constant cadence? What is all this?

TV shows that are shot on film...EVERY SINGLE ONE...shoot 24fps and telecines to tape at 29.97. When we capture that footage, we edit at 29.97fps, then output at 29.97 fps. The show airs at 29.97fps. There is no mucking with removing pulldown then re-adding it. All that does is add a step where problems can occur. Need to conserve drive space? Edit offline then capture the footage at online resolution when done. That is how we in Hollywood do it, and I hear that the Media Manager has been fixed in FCP 5.1 Universal Binary.

So many people shoot 24PA and insist on editing 23.98 because they think they will get a better "film look" out of it. You will get the film look if you shoot 24P and edit 29.97. The main difference is this:

If you are mastering to tape, shoot and edit 24P at 29.97....period...end of sentence. That workflow couldn't be simplier, and you get the film look you want.

If you are going out to film or DVD only (or in some cases, out to HD and to the web, but only if you know what you are doing... really know what you are doing), then shoot 24PA and edit 23.98 The DVD will look good, you are already prepped for film at 24fps. Done.

Don't muck about using 24PA if you ever intend to go back to tape. 24PA was designed for going out to film. Before that, people were buying PAL versions of popular DV cameras and shooting 25fps and speeding up the film slightly, and doing the same with the audio. 24PA was the answer to that.

24PA - Film out or DVD
24P - Mastering to tape.

Remember that and your headaches will go away.

Shane

I understand that people can muck up 24pA, but people can muck up anything if they try hard enough.

The problem is they can muck it up without even trying. Witness: http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=439653&tstart=0

I still maintain - unless you REALLY REALLY know what you are doing, don't shoot 24pA, don't edit in 23.98 - keep it in 24p and edit at 29.97 and you will be happy.

Patrick

"I understand that people can muck up 24pA, but people can muck up anything if they try hard enough"

heh, Graeme - I don't even have to try.

Seriously - I think that the quality of answers to this question is absolutely great - amd if there was the old system of +++ I'd give Shane, Patrick and Graeme heaps.

Lotsa confusion surrounding all of this and with the rapid adoption of the HVX, more to come I suspect.

There used to be an old Marketing addage floating round years ago that ran along the lines of, "If you don't know where you're going any road will get you there - at a cost".

Never more true than with this camera and options that it offers - really important to know exactly what the delivery is going to be.

cheers, guys - great insight.

I could say, though, "unless you really know what you're doing, why are you in the edit suite", but that takes us knowhere.

I think it's FOX drama that has constant cadence as part of it's delivery specs. Could be wrong, but if anyone knows for certain, it would be interesting to find out. I also read there are companies that specialise in fixing such chaotic cadence you'd get from editing all in 29.97fps, but that's not a job I'd like to do.

Practically speaking, you're utterly right that just shooting 24p and editing in normal DV is easiest, gives an equal film look, and you're done.

However, technically, it limits your distribution options in that you've just bumped your expense of a standards conversion from about 30 minutes of your time to needing to run it tape to tape through a top end Snell & Wilcox and that isn't cheap. Similarly, it's now very hard to make a non-stuttery web movie, and thirdly, while people watch at home on their plasma or LCD or projector, they could get interlace artifacts and bizarre speed changes on ever cut as the display tries to re-sync it's pulldown removal.

Graeme

If you are mastering to tape, shoot and edit 24P at
29.97....period...end of sentence. That workflow
couldn't be simplier, and you get the film look you
want.

If you are going out to film or DVD only (or
in some cases, out to HD and to the web, but only if
you know what you are doing... really know what
you are doing), then shoot 24PA and edit 23.98 The
DVD will look good, you are already prepped for film
at 24fps. Done.

Don't muck about using 24PA if you ever intend
to go back to tape. 24PA was designed for going out
to film. Before that, people were buying PAL
versions of popular DV cameras and shooting 25fps and
speeding up the film slightly, and doing the same
with the audio. 24PA was the answer to that.

24PA - Film out or DVD
24P - Mastering to tape.

shane, i'm sorry, i couldn't agree with this less. you have a vast amount of experience with this but saying to only do this and to only do that doesn't accomplish anything and doesn't help with the answers to the issue.

if someone wants to tape 24p and edit 23.98 fps, what's wrong with that? same as taping 24pa and editing 23.98 fps, what's wrong with that? why shouldn't people be able to use the options that are given them by the camera's and nle's capabilities? they're all tools in the tool kit and quite honestly i use all of my dvx progressive modes as well as the interlaced mode and even though there are some extra steps in removing the standard pulldown, on my lowly quicksilver the time consumption isn't very great and i've never had an issue putting 24pa back to tape.

however, if an user is going to dive into a different timebase, then it certainly behooves them to figure it out, to do the research to learn about just what is happening with the telecine, why it needs to be there, how to remove it and how to reinsert it. i think it's also interesting that there is a pshycological rational for diving into 24p without knowing squat about it and it's the holy grail of video, that "film look."

for what it's worth i will always advise removing the pulldown from 24p and 24pa video, it's just not that big of deal. educating oneself on how to properly work with this stuff seems to be the hard part.

cheers!

zeb

Disagree with me all you want. That is your right.

Yes, you can edit 23.98, and can then output that back to tape be re-adding the pulldown (or whatever you do). It is possible.

But if you have no clue about how to do it...don't. If you want to do it...research it and test it, then do it. So often we get people posting how they shot an ENTIRE film in a manner that they have no clue how to deal with. Like shooting 24PA because they "heard" it will make their film look like a Hollywood movie...or shooting HD and not knowing anything about HD...shooting for a film out...editing everything and having a final project ready to go...but they haven't talked to anyone at a facility that does the tape to film transfer, so they didn't prep the show correctly.

I just fail to see why you need to remove frames if you are just going to add them back again...and in a way that if you mess up, will look horrible. If I intended to go out to tape, I'd shoot 24P. You will get the same look anyway.

Shane

Still seeking a solution to capture material shot in 24P HDV on a Canon Xl H1. Anyone have any ideas on this? I would be willing to try any solution that maintains the HD quality and allows the sound to stay in sync.

ANy help will be greatly appreciated.

G4 Dual 1 GHz Mac OS X (10.4.6)

But if you have no clue about how to do it...don't.
If you want to do it...research it and test it, then
do it. So often we get people posting how they shot
an ENTIRE film in a manner that they have no
clue how to deal with. Like shooting 24PA
because they "heard" it will make their film look
like a Hollywood movie...or shooting HD and not
knowing anything about HD...shooting for a film
out...editing everything and having a final project
ready to go...but they haven't talked to anyone at a
facility that does the tape to film transfer, so
they didn't prep the show correctly.

lol! you'll get no argument or disagreement from me here!

I just fail to see why you need to remove frames if
you are just going to add them back again...and in a
way that if you mess up, will look horrible. If I
intended to go out to tape, I'd shoot 24P. You will
get the same look anyway.

i think this is interesting as it gets back to why shoot 24p video at all. most people say for filmic reasons. well, then get a nizo or a bolex and shoot the real stuff. also, 30p accomplishes the same "look" with no pulldown fall-da-rall. it's an interesting argument that will be around for a long time. i think if one is going in the direction of shooting 24p, then they should go whole hog and dive into it with all of it's pitfalls, that's all.