Logic Pro 10

Does Apple ever announce when a software release is coming out?

If anyone here did know anything about it, they couldn't say as they would've signed a non-disclosure agreement.

It's been 3yrs and 3 months such Logic 9 was released.

I was a Cubase user for many years (1999 - 2008) and moved to Logic for some of the advantages it had at the time - specifically Flex Time editing, and swipe comping for compiling a final take quickly.

Cubase 6 resolved these slightly glaring absences, and I decided to move back to my old favourite.

So far, it has been a great experience, and really shows that Steinberg take pride in maintaining Cubase and ensuring that little bugs and user requests are dealt with quickly. In comparison, Logic seems to have more and more issues and is really turning out to be very low on Apple's priority list. If Logic 10 does come out (and I think it will - I don't think they will kill Logic off just yet), I suspect it will continue to have one or two headlining features aimed at people who want to make music easily and quickly, placing it in a sort of Garage Band Pro role.

I have a feeling people are starting to give up on any ideas that Logic would remain a genuine challenger to Protools and Cubase, for professional users. I don't even think it will be marketed as such in future versions - that's not where the opportunities for Apple lie, from a revenue perspective.

I'd love to be wrong, as before Cubase, I was a Logic user (from 1995 - 1999) when it was a PC programme, so my ties to Logic go very far back.

But for the moment, I feel that Cubase is treated by its creators as a serious programme, is supported really well (the Steinberg forums are full of contributions from Steinberg developers, taking on board suggestions, and giving feedback about upcoming changes and tweaks) and is actually more enjoyable and stable to use.

Cheers,

Mike

Yes, after 3 years and 3 months I'm also contemplating the death of Logic on the horizon. So yesterday I went to a free class at Guitar Center, introduction to Pro Tools. The interface is not overwhelming if you know Logic. It would not be an easy transition, and I hope I never have to make it, but if I'm forced to it will not be too painful. I'm going to hold out hope that the next version of Logic is NOT Garage Band Pro and that we can get at least a few more years out of this great program as Apple continues it's transition into a telephone company.

yeloop wrote:

is really turning out to be very low on Apple's priority list.

That's what's always is being said between Logic updates - by people who have no knowledge about what Apple is working on. :-) Apple simply doesn't advertise what they are working on. Get over it. :-)

I have a feeling people are starting to give up on any ideas that Logic would remain a genuine challenger to Protools and Cubase

I haven't heard anyone describe Logic as a "challenger" to Cubase before! Logic totally dominates the Mac market, and in various polls I've seen, has more users than Pro Tools. A recent poll on another forum, admittedly without a lot of votes yet, suggests that Logic (which is available on Mac) has more users than all the Pro Tools users combined and both PC and Mac versions of Cubase and Logic, combined. with more votes, we may see that all the Cubase + Nuendo versions, or all the PT version have slightly more users than Logic/Mac, but that still means that Logic has a very strong position. For composing and performance, Pro Tools isn't even challenging Logic.

I know a lot more about Logic than Cubase, but most people who appear to be fluent in both DAWs seem to think that Logic 9 has somae pros and cons compared with the current Cubase version.

I'm going to hold out hope that the next version of Logic is NOT Garage Band Pro

What do you mean by Garage Band Pro? "Garage Band" definies the opposite of "pro"!

I'm also contemplating the death of Logic on the horizon.

There has been a few ads from Apple out there saerching for more coders to the divisions (in US and Germany) which develop Logic.

I have a feeling that that the next major follow up to Logic 9 will be out some time mid/late next year. Apple is still listing Logic classes (and Logic trainer classes), so I doubt a new version will show up in 2012.

ZXC wrote:

I haven't heard anyone describe Logic as a "challenger" to Cubase before! Logic totally dominates the Mac market, and in various polls I've seen, has more users than Pro Tools. A recent poll on another forum, admittedly without a lot of votes yet, suggests that Logic (which is available on Mac) has more users than all the Pro Tools users combined and both PC and Mac versions of Cubase and Logic, combined. with more votes, we may see that all the Cubase + Nuendo versions, or all the PT version have slightly more users than Logic/Mac, but that still means that Logic has a very strong position. For composing and performance, Pro Tools isn't even challenging Logic.

Well yes, generally speaking if you take a (once) prestige program, completely remove the copy protection and sell it at a bargain basement price it makes sense that you will have a lot of users. Consider that many new Logic users can't even fathom how to set up the program correctly. If you discount all the new users that have purchased it for a cheap thrill you will find that among professionals it's numbers are starting to slowly diminish. And as for the copy protection removal... Apple is basically giving away the program for free as no enforcement regarding illegal copies seems to be in place... even in their own forums. One gets the feeling that as long as it sells hardware, who cares.

ZXC wrote:

I haven't heard anyone describe Logic as a "challenger" to Cubase before! Logic totally dominates the Mac market, and in various polls I've seen, has more users than Pro Tools. A recent poll on another forum, admittedly without a lot of votes yet, suggests that Logic (which is available on Mac) has more users than all the Pro Tools users combined and both PC and Mac versions of Cubase and Logic, combined. with more votes, we may see that all the Cubase + Nuendo versions, or all the PT version have slightly more users than Logic/Mac, but that still means that Logic has a very strong position. For composing and performance, Pro Tools isn't even challenging Logic.

Also - relevant to the Garage Band Pro-nonsense (while awaiting an explanation of what "Garaga Band Pro" actually means) :-)

Logic had 200,000 users when Apple took over Emagic 10 years ago. Even today, there are only 100,000 Pro Tools TDM (which used to be "the industry standard") systems out there. When looking at the App Store statistics from various countries, Logic is generally among the Top 5 on the "Top Grossing" apps. There's absolutely no reason to assume that Apple considers ditiching the DAW/Pro Audio market.

Lots of people were busy on internet forums declaring that Logic was dead before Logic 8 and Logic 9 too. Logic has done extremely well on all polls I've seen for several years now, there's no sign of this changing, and the Apple Store results show that people actually are buying Logic.

All this bodes well for the rumors I've heard from a source I really trust: that Apple are working on something great for us DAW users.

Pancenter wrote:

many new Logic users can't even fathom how to set up the program correctly

I've never seen - or heard about that - but what's wrong with keeping this thread focused on when (and possiby "if", since some people always suggest that Apple, Logic etc will "die") a followup to Logic 9 comes out?

ZXC wrote:

Pancenter wrote:

many new Logic users can't even fathom how to set up the program correctly

I've never seen - or heard about that - but what's wrong with keeping this thread focused on when (and possiby "if", since some people always suggest that Apple, Logic etc will "die") a followup to Logic 9 comes out?

If you've never seen or heard about it you're living in a vacuum.

And as far as the quote of mine you used........ nice way to avoid the salient points of my post.

The quote you used is simply a pointer to the direction Apple has taken Logic, if you accept that death can come in stages and by looking at some of the serious problems on recent Apple operating systems you might say Logic is intensive care with a mixed prognosis, not quite on life support but by not releasing a fix for the lag problem, especially on the newer retina systems many are starting to wonder if Logic's not on life support.

You can't cherry pick your information and expect to convince actual users Logic is being well cared for!

Here's an example regarding Retina systems... and there a many similar posts in different forums.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4454047?answerId=20092844022#20092844022

Thank you for your great insights, ZXC. It's rare that anyone with your insider knowledge of the tech business shares news with this community. And very good news at that! So Apple is hiring coders for Logic. Great! Who would have known? We're mostly just a bunch of musicians hanging out here. Once in a while this topic comes up and sometimes we learn a tidbit or two about this program that we are seriously invested in, just like now.

Since you have no idea about the reference to 'Garage Band Pro' and you're waiting for an explanation, please check up on Apple's latest update to Final Cut. There are many parallels to Logic. It's basically 'iMovie Pro' and many pro users are leaving it.

I'm also surprised that you haven't noticed a tremendous dumbing down of the questions in this forum since Logic went into the Mac App Store. Most of us here are pretty good musicians with years of Logic experience. I can't imagine how you see yourself qualified to speak to us all in such a condesending tone. You might want to tone that down a bit, friend.

Bob Lyons wrote:

Thank you for your great insights, ZXC. It's rare that anyone with your insider knowledge of the tech business shares news with this community.

No inside information - the thing about numbers of users etc is stuff I'v seen on various sites. I belive that the thing about 200,000 Logic users actually came from Apple 10 years ago, and the thing about 100,000 TDM users is something I read on another site from someone who probably knew what he was talking about (C could be wrong here).

And very good news at that! So Apple is hiring coders for Logic. Great! Who would have known?

Anyone who use Google! :-) But even if they hire new people to the team who makes Logic, it isn't 100% certain that thy will (only) work on Logic. Logic is a result of 20 years work (+ the work preceeding Logic: Notator/Creator on Atari etc), so if Apple should start building a new DAW from scratch, it could easily take some years. They worked 5 years, without telling anyone while it was happening, on porting OS X over to the Intel platform. If Apple should plan some totally new hardware solutions, based on their own chips, it would probably take years to port OSX, Logic etc ove to these chips as well. <---- Pure guessing...

But there are very clear signs that they are working on something new and great. The ads in US and Germany, the 'leak' in some recent subrlease, where a reference to a new feature popped up in a menu ("Articulation ID"), som guy who were to a public presentation were a (former?) Apogee guy said that he kewn they were working on something, and other similar stories. Tim Cook has apparetly also said that there's some good news for pro users next year (maybe a redesigned Mac Pro?).

Since you have no idea about the reference to 'Garage Band Pro' and you're waiting for an explanation, please check up on Apple's latest update to Final Cut.

I haven't seen the new FCPX, but except that they a) removed some features in the initial release, and b) didn't state that they did, I've heard lots of great stuff about it. But I hear they lost 3% of their excisting user base - and that some of them are now coming back after some old features been redone/put into the new FCPX. I just had a brief look (again) on the FCPX specs (http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/specs/), and it doesn't appear as a Garage Band like app at all to me. I don't do any video stuff now, but purchased FCP at some point, and the first thing I thought was that I hoped they really redesigned it.

I'm also surprised that you haven't noticed a tremendous dumbing down of the questions in this forum since Logic went into the Mac App Store.

I haven't sad anything about that, have I? I don't use this forum extremely often, but of course there will be a generally lower level of knowledge among the user base once they drop the price and this way invite a lot of amateurs/newbies/students users etc. Illegal copies also affect this situation, of course. But aren't most pro users over at logicprohelp.com anyway?

I'm in touch with many Logic users, and while there have been some serious lag problems lately, I simply haven't sen anyone complain about not being able to set up Logic correctly, which of course doesn't mean that these problems don't exist. If many new users couldn't fathom how to set up Logic, there would have been lots of threads in several forums about problems setting Logic up. But if Logic generally would be very difficult to set up for many users, Apple should certinly change something ASAP.

Pancenter: ....death can come in stages and by looking at some of the serious problems on recent Apple operating systems you might say Logic is intensive care with a mixed prognosis

Whatever the number is, it's too bad that some/many people have or have had some serious lag problems since Lion - and that the problem even exists/has gotteen worse. Personally I didn't have the problem in Lion, I got it in Mountain Lion, and now I can't recreate it (I removed some drivers, updated others etc). But I know many pros who use Logic actively (and do it myself) without these problems, and just don't see any sign of "death coming in stages". Nevertheless, Apple should IMO release something which solves the problems some people have, if possible even if they are caused by 3rd part drivers, and even if only, say, 5% of the users ar affected by this.

I'm all for more openness about upcoming fixes and known issues. And if this should be exclusively caused by 3rd part drivers, why not state that in public? If people buy a new Mac and the current version of Logic and have these problems without instaling other software, it's actually a kind of DOA (Dead On Arrival) situation - meaning that people could just return the products and get the money back of they wish - at least in some counties. Not a good situationfor Apple, if that's what it is.

Back to Logic 10: One of the ads I saw this summer said something about a two year period/work on new user interface etc. I don't know when that ad initially was posted, but if they plan on a two year process from this summer, a Major New Something won't be released until 2014. I hope this isn't the case, because I want some new features to play with too. :-) And fixes of course, but they shouldn't come in a major new uodate, but in free subreleases.

yeloop wrote:

I have a feeling people are starting to give up on any ideas that Logic would remain a genuine challenger to Protools and Cubase, for professional users.

I've been hearing good things about Cubase (and the new DP), but PT still isn't 64 bit. It sounds like that will finally happen next year, but by that point it will be three years after Logic went 64 bit. PT is still a great app for recording live tracks and mixing for video, but without 64 bit it's a poor option for big midi sessions unless you host the instruments externally without something like VEP.

We'll see what happens with PT 11, but at that point Logic 10 will hopefully be out.

And as I've said many times, I don't buy the comparison to Final Cut. In that case the code was so old and crusty they tried and failed to update it to 64 bit and had to trash it all and start over. With Logic it has already had the rewrite and update to 64 bits, so there's no reason to dump all that work. Logic definitely can use some updates, but they are more incremental like being able to use all cores on live tracks. Mainstage can already do this and it supposedly runs on the same audio engine, so hopefully we'll see it in logic in the next major update.

I abandoned Cubase about 7 years ago in favour of Logic and PT. So I have tons of stuff made in Cubase 5 (the version before Cubase SX) that I can´t open. Should have kept the old G3/4 of course, but I didn´t. And here I am.

My point is: It´s also about backwards compability. Maybe it´s because I´m old, but sometimes I wish development was a bit slower. To make good music, to be creative you need some tools, of course!

But it seems to me that some people "can´t be creative" if they haven´t got the latest soft and hardware.

As is: What can you do in DP, PT, Cubase that you can´t do in Logic? I give in that Logic´s GUI is a bit outdated,

and in some cases malfunctioning. But bugs are everywhere and the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. With a brush up on the GUI, Logic could easily have been Logic X with the 64 bit version.

Bob Lyons wrote:

please check up on Apple's latest update to Final Cut.

New update yesterday:

http://9to5mac.com/2012/10/23/apple-updates-final-cut-pro-x-ibooks-author-with-n ew-features/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+9To5Mac- MacAllDay+%289+to+5+Mac+-+Apple+Intelligence%29

Apple is releasing updates to a few of its apps following its media event earlier today. The biggest update goes to Final Cut Pro X, because, on top of RED camera support, it received a ton of new features. iBooks Author, as Apple briefly touched on during the event, also got updates today for some of the new iBooks features and Retina Mac displays. Smaller updates to Apple’s Motion and Compressor apps were also released.

Final Cut Pro X: Other than RED camera support, with “native REDCODE RAW editing and optional background transcode to Apple ProRes,” FCPX also got a new unified import window, MXF plug-in support, and much more:

What’s New in Version 10.0.6

• Expand multichannel audio files directly in the timeline for precise editing of individual audio channels
• Unified import window for transferring media from both file-based cameras and folders of files
• Redesigned Share interface for exporting projects and range selections to one or more destinations
• RED camera support with native REDCODE RAW editing and optional background transcode to Apple ProRes
• MXF plug-in support that allows you to work natively with MXF files from import through delivery using third-party plug-ins
• Dual viewers, each with a video scope display, let you compare shots to match action and color
• Option to add chapter markers in the timeline for export to video files, DVD, and Blu-ray disc
• Range selection now preserves start and end points in the Event Browser and allows you to create multiple range selections on a single clip
• Paste attributes window lets you choose specific effects to copy between clips
• Flexible Clip Connections allow you to keep Connected Clips in place when slipping, sliding or moving clips in the Primary Storyline
• Add a freeze frame to your timeline with a single keystroke
• Drop shadow effect with intuitive onscreen controls to adjust position, edge falloff, angle, and more
• New controls for combining audio from multiple angles within a Multicam Clip
• Compound Clip creation in the timeline now saves the clip in the Event Browser for re-use in other projects
• XML 1.2 featuring metadata import and export for richer integration with third-party apps

I find it quite amusing how people have such an urge to turn these things into a competition :

"My software is better than yours! It's what ALL the pros use, you know!"

It's not about that, it's about options. People talk in these forums as if they are some kind of messiah of the music industry, but how can anybody know the preferred DAW worldwide, in every facet of music?

I've actually worked in the music industry & the TV & Film industry and I could not possibly say what the "preferred industry DAW" is, I can only speak from my own experiences

In the TV world I never once saw anyone using Cubase, but that's not to say it wasn't popular. Where I worked it was almost entirely based around Pro Tools but then I often found that another studio only down the road would have a totally different system at their disposal. Even in TV it often depended on the specifisc area of audio you were working in as to which DAW was used, which is a little odd as they pretty much all do the same things more or less. The big dubbing suites would virtually all be Pro Tools based but some of the editing suites would have Nuendo systems and many of the guys working in sound design and musicians would use Pro Tools but with Logic as a front-end.

However, when I was working in music I often found a much wider scope. It depended on a studio's size & the hardware within it & also the engineer's own preference. It also seemed to depend on genre too. 15 years ago I worked lots with dance music and nearly everyone I met used Cubase. However, the guys who worked across several genres almost always picked emagic's software over Steinberg's. A few years down the line and many of those guys rooted in dance music who would've previously used Cubase were instead using programs such as Reason, Fruityloops and Ableton Live. In fact the latter really changed DAW production in general as the way it worked with audio was pretty revolutionary.

And this is the point:

It's not about which DAW is the best, or the 1 "all the pro's use", it's about having options and what works best for you.

I'm still a devoted user of Logic because it's what I'm used to and it suits my workflow. What's great about it is it can be used by novices yet, when you are ready, there is near endless depth to the software once you are more confident with it and should you wish to become more creative.

i actually don't believe Apple will "simplify" Logic at all but, actually, I think they'll expand it significantly.

When Apple first took over eMagic, Logic was quite dated and was quite intimidating to any novice user. Apple had to change that by bringing it more inline with their own software. They worked on the GUI to make it look the same as their other Pro software but they also stripped it back a bit

In my opinion, Logic's Environment was 1 of it's big selling points to experienced users, but it was also not only 1 of the most overwhelming areas of the program to any new users but it was also 1 of the hardest to re-design in order to make it fit with Apple's other products. It is still one of the best bits about Logic and enables you to really get creative, but it is still 1 of the most dated areas of the software. Apple won't scrap it entirely in order to simplify the software into a kind of expanded Garageband (which seems to be what some believe), but I expect they'll have really stripped it back to be built from the ground up

I would not be surprised for the new intepretation of the Environment to resemble something not unlike Reason in some parts and Reaktor in others, where plugins can be rooted together in near unlimited ways, using graphical 'racks' and various other modules to manipulate signal flow.

I also expect Apple will make a lot of use of the Cloud and iTunes too - you'll probably be able to mix tracks through the Cloud and work with other online users in real-time and then quickly maste the result and upload it straight into iTunes to share or even sell. Something like this would rrevolutionise the industry and would be entirley unique to Apple as no other DAW has it's own iTunes type software. This is the route Apple will bew going down over time - unifying their pro creative software with their media distribution software.

Don't be surprised to see some kind of app inclusion either - again, no other DAW manufacturer also has smartphone/tablet hardware in it's product range. There will be a whole host of apps which really integrate your Apple hardware with Logic and the music creation process. You'll probably be able to run Logic on your computer but mix it entirely remotely on your phone or tablet (I know you can already pretty much, but it can be a little clunky and very "un-Apple" like. Just expect it to all be tightened up, so you literally just sign up Logic with your Apple ID and when you turn on the app on your iPad it immediately syncs up with your current project). You'll probably find Logic plugins that can run on your phone whilst they're sitting in your channel strip.

You might even be able to have a project running at home on your studio's computer and be able to access and arrange it over 4G and wireless.

These are all just guesses on my part, I'm not privy to any "inside" information, but I'm simply trying to illustrate the kind of advantages Apple has over it's competitors in the DAW market. As I said before, for the consumer it is all about having options, but with all the pies Apple have their fingers in, they really have the opportunity to offer us an option nobody else can really match

I am also dreading the release of "GarageBand Pro X". I have been using Logic since back before the Emagic days when Logic was "C-Lab Notator". Logic has maintained the same look and feel through all of the changes and upgrades. Unfortunately, Apple's M.O. is to abandon the pro market and only be concerned about the consumers. The pro video editing community hates Final Cut Pro X and I'm completely sure that they will do the exact same thing with Logic Pro X and it will abandon most of the powerful features of Logic and adopt the GarageBand platform and cater to that community.

sootysax wrote:

Final Cut Pro X and I'm completely sure that they will do the exact same thing with Logic

With FCP they had dead end code and had to scrap it all and create a whole new app from scratch. And they've added a ton of pro features back in with updates. As much as people would like to assume the exact same thing for Logic, that comparison makes no sense.