10 Replies Latest reply: Nov 19, 2012 7:53 PM by zapmeister
zapmeister Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

For my HVX, in FCP, I'm using the suggested preset for 1080 24pA which cites a compressor setting of DVCPRO HD 1080p30. When I try to drag the clip into the timeline it says there is a mismatch--that the clip does not match the preset and I have the option to change the sequence setting to match the clip settings or not. FCP advises that one change the sequence to match the clip property, and so if I opt to change that sequence setting, when I look at the sequence specs the one thing that has changed is that now the sequence setting is DVCPRO HD 1080i60.  That is, it appears from this that despite having checked the box in Raylight to remove the 2:3:3:2 pulldown, this has failed and clip is still interlaced over 60. And indeed when one looks at the clip properties the clip is identified as DVCPRO HD 1080i60.

 

What am I doing wrong and what do I do to get the pulldown properly removed and make my 1080pA shot footage progressive?  Or is there something fundamental I'm not correctly understanding?


Mac Pro, Mac OS X (10.6.8), FC Studio 3
  • Shane Ross Level 8 Level 8 (42,315 points)

    Does RAYLIGHT remove pulldown?

     

    The correct format for 1080pA is 1080i60...because that is how it was shot.  1080i 29.97 with pulldown.  If you want to remove pulldown, use Log and Transfer to import the footage, and in the L&T preferences, make sure the option to REMOVE PULLDOWN is checked.

     

    Raylight allows you to edit the footage natively...without converting.  So how can it remove the pulldown when it doesn't modify the footage in any way?  It just allows FCP to see it as it is...allows FCP to read the MXF files.

  • zapmeister Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hi Shane,

     

    Thanks for your reply.

     

    I'm not disputing your suggested approach as I believe it is generally the tried and true one.

     

    To be clear, I have done that as well (making sure the remove pulldown box is checked in the L&T interface) and from what I can tell yielded the exactly the same results… same clip properties vs.  sequence properties.

     

    Either way I use the FCP easy setup to create the sequence format it recommends for 24pA footage which in the FCP browser shows among a long list of properties the following key ones  a video rate of 23.98 fps (ii) compressor setting of DVCPRO HD 1080p 30 and  Pixel Aspect of HD 1280x1080.

     

    Whether I use L&T or Raylight, I get a clip with the same properties except the compressor setting being DVCPRO HD 1080i60. I assume that FCP identifies the mismatch because of the difference of that parameter. 

     

    Either way I have the same problem.

     

    BTW, the latest version of Raylight claims to remove pulldown. In that pa's General Options the top section is dedicated to pulldown removal. One can set the target frame rate (23.976 in my case) and check the box of the removal. You can see a screen grab of the General Options on their web site (http://dvfilm.com/raylight/mac/index.htm).

     

    From their Support Doc:

    Pulldown Options

     

    24PA pulldown, also known as 2:3:3:2 or "Advanced Pulldown", can be removed from 1080i/60 and 480i/60 (NTSC DV, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50) clips, if the "Remove Pulldown" option is selected. You can also use this option to remove 3:2 or 2:2 pulldown from footage recorded at 60P, or 2:2 pulldown from 50P. Be sure to set the Target Frame Rate in the drop-down selector box to 23.976, 29.97, or 25 fps as appropriate.

     

    To answer your question, I can only hypothesize that when a file is processed through Raylight incuding the Pulldown removal instruction, the reulting Raylight .MOV file includes instructions to quicktime/FCP to remove the extra frames when the MXF file is played through it.

     

    Possibly this feature does not work correctly however? I guess next I need to contact Raylight.

     

    BTW to round out the picture for you:

     

    My workflow into FCP 7/Studio 3:

    1. HPX170.. shooting 1080 24pA.

    2. Ingest files from P2 cards via P2 Card reader onto external drives using MacPro (OS10.6.8) workstation using Panasonic's P2CMS

    3. To avoid Log & Transfer and the creation of redundant massive scratch data, I apply Raylight v3 to:

    (a) re-wrap .MXFs into .MOV alias pointing to the original MXFs in sub-folder "Contents" and

    (b) remove the 2:3:3:2 pulldown

    4. Import the .MOV alias files into a Clip Bin in FCP

    5. Use the FCP easy setup to create the recommended sequence for 24pA footage which in the FCP browser cites properties for that sequence as having  a video rate of 23.98 fps (ii) compressor setting of DVCPRO HD 1080p 30 and  Pixel Aspect of HD 1280x1080,

    6. I attempt to drag the clips into that sequence which is where i hit the mismatch.

     

     

    Some key anecdotal observations for which I'm uncertain of the significance:

    1. I cannot perceive much difference in how the footage plays whether I convert the sequence to match the clip as per the above workflow (as FCP recommends) or conversely elect to force the clip into the FCP recommended sequence for 24pA footage

    2. footage viewed in the P2CMS Previewer (prior to pulldown removal) does appear to my realtively untrained eye as more interlaced (though not terribly so) than that viewed in FCP in either case immediately above

    3. Though the image of the 1080 footage is larger, that 1080 footage does not look as clean 720 pN (24p) footage shot with that same camera.

     

    In the end I'm not sure if I have a misunderstanding, doing something wrong or whether everything is OK and as good as it gets considering what to me appears to be a degradation of the 1080 image in comparison with the 720 image.

     

    Any more thoughts?

  • Shane Ross Level 8 Level 8 (42,315 points)

    >Whether I use L&T or Raylight, I get a clip with the same properties except the compressor setting being DVCPRO HD 1080i60. I assume that FCP identifies the mismatch because of the difference of that parameter.

     

    The COMPRESSOR doesn't matter in this case.  It should be 1080i...that's the original format you shot.  1080i 24pA.  It's pA in a 1080i stream.  So the format is 1080i.  Your RATE should be 23.98.  If your rate is 23.98, and format is 1080i60...you are fine.  Things are normal. 

     

    >3. Though the image of the 1080 footage is larger, that 1080 footage does not look as clean 720 pN (24p) footage shot with that same camera.

     

    Because the sensor on the HVX is 960x540...half the resolution of 1080.  It uses Pixel Shifting to make it the size it is.  720p on those cameras is cleaner because the blowup isn't as extreme.  I always shoot 720p 24PN with those cameras.  First off, it takes up a lot less space on the cards so I have longer shooting times.  Second, the image quality is better.  Third, I can output 1080p or 1080i fine with the Kona 3 and it upscales VERY well, and makes it look like it was shot 1080 to begin with. 

  • zapmeister Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Thanks Shane,

    So assuming that the pulldown is being removed correctly and the loss of quality is merely the innevitablity of the in-camera upscaling to 1080 rather than upscaling th 720 later in post) given that the footage exists (i.e. its not a question at this point of reverting to my previous workflow of shouting 720 and upezzing to 1080 in post, I still have the dliemma of the fromat mismatch and how to treat the footage when 'm putting it into a timeline. Is is safer to have the footage tell  the timeline what it should be or force the footage into the 1080pA sequence that FCP calls for?

     

    Apropos your Kona 3 workflow: This is the first I'm hearing of this product. I'll look into in presently but I'm speculating it is a dedicated uprezing program that is analogous to, for example, BlowUp in the stills world that does a better job up-rezzing images than Photoshop.... Assuming this is the case, for footage that was shot 1080pA, can one treat it differently in FCP or some other ap to restore it to its native 720 and then do the uprez in post with Kona to get a better end result?

  • zapmeister Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Bump....

     

    Shane... so assuming that the pulldown is being removed correctly and the loss of quality is merely the innevitablity of the in-camera upscaling to 1080 rather than upscaling to 720 later in post) given that the footage exists (i.e. its not a question at this point of reverting to my previous workflow of shooting 720 and upezzing to 1080 in post), I still have the dliemma of the format mismatch and how to treat the footage when I'm putting it into a timeline. Is is safer to have the footage tell the timeline what it should be or force the footage into the 1080pA sequence that FCP calls for?

  • Shane Ross Level 8 Level 8 (42,315 points)

    Safer to have FCP set the sequence up to match the footage.

  • zapmeister Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Thank you Shane

  • Studio X Level 7 Level 7 (26,990 points)

    Why did you give yourself the solved star and not Shane who answered the question?

     

    x

  • Shane Ross Level 8 Level 8 (42,315 points)

    Pssshhh...like I need it. 

  • zapmeister Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    This system is not intuitive I guess. I was just indicating that my original question had been solved... And so thanks again to Shane. That star goes to him as far as I'm concerned. I don't want any stars, snakes or ladders.