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Level 1

24 points

FURIOUS!! - Automatic iPad Sync Deleted All Apps Without Warning

My iPad, 3rd Generation (6.0), is set to wirelessly sync with iTunes (10.7) in Mountain Lion (10.8.2). Today I opened iTunes and was greeted with the a message advising me that the iPad had new apps that were not yet synced back to iTunes. I was in a rush so I declined to sync the new apps. But as soon as I pressed the button, iTunes proceeded to delete all of my apps from the iPad, including all the data associated with those apps (including PDF files with annotations). I attempted to restore from an iTunes backup, but I got nothing back.

My objections:

(1) This is seriously unpredictable and harmful behavior in iTunes.

(2) My iTunes backup utterly failed or was overwritten after I declined to transfer the apps

(3) This is not a new problem: See http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=889859

My feelings:

Now I have to spend hours recreating what I had on the iPad. I'm a patient man, and very computer savvy. But this has me wanting to throw my iPad through the window.

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 9:52 AM

Best reply

JimHdk

Level 7

28,874 points

Posted on Dec 2, 2012 10:20 AM

This is a user-to-user forum. If you want your complaint to get to Apple send it to them at:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipad.html

View in context

37 replies

Dec 3, 2012 6:52 AM in response to Len Flier

Len Flier wrote:

I'd really like to steer this thread in a more constructive direction.

I propose to have a critical discussion on this particular function in the iTunes software. Specifically, is deleting apps and data on the iOS device the best way to handle a situation where the user declines to transfer them to iTunes?

Johnathan's position, which is that there is nothing wrong with the software and that I should just read the manual is one possible answer to that question. But it seems antithetical to Apple's commitment to intuitive function and paper-thin manuals.

My position is that the behavior of the software is highly unintuitive and that it represents a very casual approach to a user's data.

Meg's position, which is a meta-argument about the use of the forum, is that users may not have this kind of discussion here.

My response to Meg is "If not here, then where?" To say that this forum is only about technical support begs the question in favor of Jonathan's view. If the software is functioning as designed, any problems I am having must therefore be my fault. But that is a very difficult position to defend. Nothing is so perfect that it cannot be improved.

My suggestion, then, is that we stop throwing buns at each other and talk about how the software could be better. Any takers?

It appears you do not want to follow the rules of these forums. As already stated, these forums are here here to allow users to help users with technical issues. It is irrelevant "...talk about how the software could be better. Any takers?" to discuss what you think should be discussed. Apple does not participate here and any discussion along the lines you suggest would not be viewed or considered by Apple. Your fellow users have provided all they can so prolonging the discussion will be for naught.

If you want to tell Apple their programming decisions are not good then use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of this and all other forum pages.

Dec 3, 2012 7:14 AM in response to Len Flier

I'm curious about two things.

1. Why don't you just re-download the apps via the App Store (you haven't actually said that you tried this)?

2. If you haven't done this, how can you be sure that the data is missing, if the app used to create/view the data has not been re-installed?

Len Flier Author

Level 1

24 points

Dec 3, 2012 9:11 AM in response to flibbertygibbet

A constructive comment at last!

That proposal, unfortunately, is no longer possible with my original data. I've restored from an earlier backup and the original data is now lost. It is something worth testing with new data, however. And I shall do that later today when I have time.

One of the more intuitive features of the Android OS is that data and applications have a more independent relationship. In iOS, data seems to be tied to a particular application -- at least that's the way it feels in iTunes where I transfer PDFs onto the iPad in a particular application that reads them. In Android, I can simply drag the files to the device from, for example, Windows explorer, independently of any application.

I shall test your theory that the files persist even when the applications are deleted. That would move the discussion forward, although not in the direction I think it needs to go, which is a willingness to question how the user interface functions in the first place.

Dec 3, 2012 9:28 AM in response to Len Flier

The Filesystem in iOS unlike other operating systems is sandboxed. That is each Application has access only to its files, and nothing else. This prevents viruses from actually affecting sensistive areas of the device unlike in Android devices where they are exposed because any application can access any part of the file system it wishes.

It is this sandboxing that prevents traditional transfer of files to and from the iDevices. Because the Applications cannot directly access the filesystem, only there own defined area. Which is why data is tied to the Application that uses it or reads it.

Transferring a PDF for instance puts it in the iBooks file area. Or for whichever PDF reader you choose.

When you delete an application its data goes with it because the removal wipees the sand box assigned to the Application.

Len Flier Author

Level 1

24 points

Dec 3, 2012 10:00 AM in response to Phil0124

Thanks Phil. That answers that question.

You seem well informed. Back, then, to my original question. Am I also missing a point about why iTunes wants to delete apps that the user declines to transfer?

deggie

Level 10

167,177 points

Dec 3, 2012 10:03 AM in response to Len Flier

It doesn't do that in my case. It should not have done so in your case unless in your haste you clicked the wrong thing.

Dec 3, 2012 10:48 AM in response to Len Flier

I'm not entirely sure I know what happened in your case, but If it synced with the Library and the Apps did not exist in the Library it would simply remove them from the device. That's what the Sync does. It puts your library onto the device. so both the device and Library on your PC are "synced". If there are Apps that don't exist in the Library it can't put those onto the device, because they aren't there. It removes everything and puts back what the Library has.

The message you claim appeared should have mentioned that at the bottom:

Len Flier Author

Level 1

24 points

Dec 3, 2012 11:39 AM in response to Phil0124

Bingo Phil. That is exactly the dialog box that appeared. And it does contain the warning you refer to. In my haste, I neglected to read it (see my previous post).

Four points on that, though:

The dialog box asks if I want to transfer those items back to my iTunes library. Maybe I decide I don't want to. On the face of it, at least before reading the fine print, this seems like an innocuous choice, akin to choosing to keep files on a flash drive without copying them to the hard drive on your computer -- a choice many users are accustomed to making with no unexpected consequences ensuing.
The word "transfer" in the dialog box (as in "Do you want to transfer...") suggests that the files are taken from one place and put somewhere else -- a cut and paste move, rather than a simple copy. "Copy" would be a more accurate description of what iTunes is proposing to do. But if I take the literal meaning of the word "transfer," that's not what I want to have happen at all. Even if I do want the apps copied over to iTunes, I still I want the apps to stay on the iOS device. (As you point out, that's what actually happens, of course. But that's not what a literal reading of the dialog box suggests.)
A user who doesn't know about sandboxing will not draw the connection between the apps being deleted and the associated data being deleted. It's not obvious that removing the apps also removes the data. Even if we are not Android users, we all come from a desktop world in which apps and data are not sandboxed.
The dialog box itself says nothing about a risk of data loss to the user if the "Don't Transfer" button is chosen. And I have already suggested why a user might believe it to be a safe choice. Users are used making those sorts of decisions with their flash drives, with no harm accruing from it. So why not with their iOS devices?

My point has been that this sets up a rather dangerous trap for the unaware. Someone buys an app; uses it to create content; goes to sync his device; misunderstands the dialog box; and then watches in horror as iTunes proceeds to delete not only his new app purchase (which, as has already been pointed out, is easily replaced) but his data, too. A very unhappy user experience. Maybe even infuriating ;-)

Dec 3, 2012 12:16 PM in response to Len Flier

Len Flier wrote:

Bingo Phil. That is exactly the dialog box that appeared. And it does contain the warning you refer to. In my haste, I neglected to read it (see my previous post)...

... My point has been that this sets up a rather dangerous trap for the unaware....

Well, the UI tried to make you "aware", but in your "haste" you chose to ignore it.

How is that anyone's fault other than your own?

Len Flier Author

Level 1

24 points

Dec 3, 2012 12:30 PM in response to Kilgore-Trout

Right back to blame the user... You didn't read my post.

Dec 3, 2012 12:34 PM in response to Len Flier

It may be right back to it, but it is the most appropriate response to the situation.The bottom line: You screwed up, and want someone else to blame. I'm sorry you lost data. I know, it *****. But when you perform a delete funtion of any kind and don't bother the read the on-screen warnings or instructions, its not surprising.

The online whine here isn't going to change that.

Dec 3, 2012 12:43 PM in response to Kilgore-Trout

Hang on a bit. Just because he decided, in error or not, to NOT transfer the applications from the iOS device to the PC at that moment does not necessarily imply that the data created by those apps will also be deleted (and no, it's no in the text shown in the warning popup).

However, the mistake made by the OP is that, having lost the apps, rather than just reinstall them, he restored the entire device to an earlier backup NOT containing the data produced by the apps which had been deleted. THAT clearly is user error, as it should be obvious that restoring a device will cause you to lose anything not in that backup...

Dec 3, 2012 2:07 PM in response to flibbertygibbet

flibbertygibbet wrote:

Hang on a bit. Just because he decided, in error or not, to NOT transfer the applications from the iOS device to the PC at that moment does not necessarily imply that the data created by those apps will also be deleted (and no, it's no in the text shown in the warning popup).

I haven't tried to delete an App by not transfering it to itunes. But usually when you delete one the normal way it warns you that the Data will go with it. So assuming the non transfer will do the same is not out of the question.

Also since it basically clears the device before syncing back, I would assume the data is also gone either way.

E27

Level 1

15 points

Dec 3, 2012 7:49 PM in response to Len Flier

Anytime you lose data you wanted to keep it is never fun. The dialog box states though that "purchased items" ... will be removed from the iPad if you do not transfer to your iTunes library. It is unfortunate that it was not clearly noted that "purchased items" include its related data, but that is how apps work in ios.

Comparatively, when an app is directly deleted from the iPad, a dialog box clearly informs that the app and all of its data will be deleted. This description is clear and a comment to Apple noting this seems reasonable. No doubt that you and others will not overlook the ramifications in this dialog box in the future. Apple stating a few extra words in that dialog box may actually happen if you let them know via feedback or in person or over the phone.

Regards

Len Flier Author

Level 1

24 points

Dec 4, 2012 4:37 AM in response to E27

Now there's an optimistic thought! And a good suggestion.

I propose the following, then:

It looks like Apple's engineers are viewing the connection of the iOS device with iTunes that triggers this dialog box as a sync event.
As Phil observes in an earlier post, the only way for the iOS device and iTunes to be in sync is if (a) the new apps and their data are copied over to iTunes or (b) the new apps and their data are deleted from the iOS device. And those are, indeed, the two choices that are offered to the user. Totally logical so far.
But as has been pointed out above, the dialog box is potentially confusing. Users who are quite at home with flash drives and other devices being out of sync, might interpret the dialog box differently: not as a choice between syncing using methods (a) or (b), but as a choice between syncing and not syncing. (In retrostpect, that's what I thought iTunes was asking me.)
When the user makes the wrong choice in the dialog box as it is currently configured, the consequences can be immediately destructive to the user's data. This, at least, needs to be made clearer to the user, as E27 suggests.
My suggestion would be to go one step farther and change iTune's response to the event as follows:
- Event: User connects iOS device containing new apps and data to iTunes when automatic sync is enabled
- Response: iTunes responds with following choices:
  - iTunes has found purchased items on the iPad XXXX that are not present in your iTunes library. Do you wish to copy these items from your iPad back to your iTunes library?
    If you choose not to copy, your new apps and data will not be backed up in iTunes at this time. You can still choose to copy at a later time.
  - Buttons: (Copy) (Don't Copy)
Another possible response would be to not generate the dialog box at all:
- Event: User connects iOS device containing new apps and data to iTunes when automatic sync is enabled.
- Response: iTunes automatically syncs and backs up the new apps and data with no dialog box presented to the user.

I think #5 or #6 is more in line with what users would expect, and they avoid the unintended consequence of data destruction. If the user chooses (Don't Copy) in #5 he is still vulnerable insofar as his data is not backed up, but that seems better to me than choosing (Don't Allow) in the existing dialog box and having his data immediately destroyed.

In #6, the user's data is totally protected and he can delete the apps himself later if he wants. I wouldn't be suprised by that behavior. If I've enabled auto syncing, that's just what I would expect to happen anyway. This alternative also has the advantage of simplifying the interface. Why throw up unnecessary and potentially confusing dialog boxes if the user has already decided to auto-sync his device?

What do you think?

FURIOUS!! - Automatic iPad Sync Deleted All Apps Without Warning