Can external hard drives kill a logic board? suspecting toshiba canvio

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Can external hard drives kill a logic board? suspecting toshiba canvio

I just rebooted a powerbook G4 1.25 10.5.8 with three external drives plugged in - all I got was a black screen. Long story short, all boot attempts failed from then on (Safe mode, black tiger install DVD, target mode while connected to an imac, fw800 ccc backup), except for two successful attempts: One successful login after removing the top 1GB RAM. After that, even with only the bottom one RAM in there, no boot, sometimes chime, sometimes HD spin, sometimes not even that. A second successful reboot after a Power manager reset, but the cursor froze a second after the message appeared that the date had been reset. From then on, again no boot.

I'm not so much worried about my powerbook (assume it's the logic board, since it won't boot from a functional install DVD), more about a future macbook. Could it be that one of the drives, or having all of them plugged in while rebooting, fried the logic board? The two fw drives (a lacie rugged fw800, and an aegis fw400) I had for many years and always plugged in, so I dont suspect them, but I do suspect my new 1TB Toshiba Canvio USB 3.0, connected to both USB ports via a 3.0 Y cable.

The Canvio had been giving troubles, they could be relevant or not: with the Y cable, and only then (a powered hub would not work) it wold work fine for an hour or so of copying before "disconnecting" - the files were still readable, but no copy to or from the drive or trashing things (error -36) and no unmounting (error -50). Only with shutdown was it possible to disconnect it. I lived with it, and used it only for backups that did not change much. Canvio was reformatted Mac OS Extended (Journaled) with GUID partition table. At the time of reboot, the drive was in its "disconnected" state. manuf. date 08/2012.

should I maybe use my canvio only via with a powered hub, or avoid it altogether? Found one remark online somewhere that USB-powered drives can fry a logic board when they draw too much power, but no further information. Comments appreciated.

powerbook g4 1.25, Mac OS X (10.5.4), 2 GB RAM, 50/250 GB free hard drive space

Posted on Dec 15, 2012 9:00 AM

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Answer 1

Best reply

a brody

Level 10

82,991 points

Dec 20, 2012 10:22 AM in response to schmunzelmonster

Powerbook G4s don't support USB 3. They only support USB 2 and less. Furthermore, USB is not bootable for Mac OS X. So if you anticipated cloning your hard drive to the external would be able to boot, you are using the wrong peripheral standard. Only Firewire is bootable. GUID formatting is not bootable either on Powerbooks, that's only avaialble for MacBooks and newer Macs. Furthermore, you may not even be able to read a GUID formatted drive on a Powerbook depending on the support of the operating system. An Error -36 is an input/output error. Lastly, if the machine hasn't had its PRAM battery changed in 4 years, now is the time. That's a separate battery from the one that you can remove from the bottom of the case.

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Answer 2

Dec 21, 2012 1:58 AM in response to a brody

Hi,

thank you for answering - I will try to get a PRAM battery (sitting in Europe, so no newegg unfortunately) So the logic board may not be dead, you say. That would help a lot. By searching myself I only found that if it does not start from an install CD nor from any external fw drive or in target mode through fw, it's most probably the logic board. Will report back after replacing the PRAM battery.

Concerning FW vs USB, yes I am aware of bootability, and I had not intended the USB drive for bootable backup. I just have more data than my internal hard drive can hold, have them on external 7200 rpm fw800 drives, and to back up these external drives once in a while (they dont change so much), I thought a USB drive would be enough. In addition, I needed to get something off a PC (and if I ever get a macbook I thought could use the USB 3.0 drive to boot).

Concerning GUID, I tried all formatting options for the Toshiba Canvio (I also installed the free NTFS driver that comes with the Canvio, but NTFS is a mess on the mac, I found). The powerbook (G4 1.25, 10.5.8) could read and write to canvio with GUID, so left it at that. (I know I destroyed the PC-connection by reformatting it other than NTFS, but that was just for a one-time copying thing from the PC, I don't touch PCs very often.)

In all formats (GUID or Apple Partition Map with Mac OS extended journaled, or Master boot record with NTFS), the Canvio would do this strange "disconnect" thing after some time of copying, but this may be an entirely different issue ("it wold work fine for an hour or so of copying before "disconnecting" - the files were still readable, but no copy to or from the drive or trashing things and no unmounting. Only with shutdown was it possible to disconnect it. ") I am right now writing on a borrowed replacement macbook pro 15" 2.2 GHz i7 (i think USB 2.0) and I dont dare to plug in the canvio drive, because I think it might have had something to do with the failure. I ordered a USB3.0 powered hub to be safe. PRAM battery exchange in the powerbook will show if it wasn't just the battery.

will report back.

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Answer 3

Dec 21, 2012 3:26 AM in response to schmunzelmonster

ad PRAM battery - the replacement costs quite a lot. Can I check whether it is the PRAM battery without buying one and replacing it? thanks

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Answer 4

a brody

Level 10

82,991 points

Dec 21, 2012 7:31 AM in response to schmunzelmonster

Most batteries have a negative and positive testing point. Using a standard voltmeter will let you know if at least it is up to snuff. If it isn't the voltage it is rated for with a tenth of a volt, then it is in the process of dying.

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Answer 5

Allan Jones

Level 9

68,774 points

Dec 21, 2012 9:15 AM in response to schmunzelmonster

The problems with a PowerBook G4 PRAM battery are:

<> it takes a fairly intense tear-down to reach the battery to even do a simple voltage test. This tear-down is beyond the average computer user.

<> the only "known-new" batteries repalcements are for the 1.67Ghz units. Anything else has either been sitting on a shelf for years or is used/pulled,. To me, a used battery is like used chewing gum--not at all desireable.

If you want to preview the tear-down process, you can review this guide:

PRAM Battery

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Answer 6

Dec 21, 2012 10:22 AM in response to Allan Jones

I searched online for both voltmeter and PRAM batteries. A Voltmeter to test the PRAM battery before buying a new one is an option but they are not cheap, and as you say, all I found was used PRAM batteries on ebay for the G4 1.25. Macfixit has them new, but only if I solder it in myself, and then I'd need to buy a soldering iron too. I'd be fine with the surgery, I replaced the hard drive myself too, maybe I would not be so comfortable with soldering but it can't be that hard.

I'm just thinking about spending around $70 to test if it was the battery. Given the way the powerbook failed, upon a reboot with power plugged in and battery fully charged, but three bus-powered hard drives connected (fw400,800, and a toshiba canvio USB 3.0 via Y cable that I read to be a rather power-hungry device) I was leaning towards the logic board failure. (Please correct me if this is wrong.) But if the pbook would live for another while, that would be of course great. I'll think about it. If I do the soldering, I'll post back how it went.

The other part of the question was towards future use of the Toshiba Canvio. Can the external USB drive harm the logic board by drawing too much power? And if so, via a powered USB 3.0 hub, there will be no power spikes to the macbook? I am right now using a borrowed macbook pro 2.2 i7 10.8.2, and if I could use the toshiba drive via a powered USB hub without running the danger of damaging a borrowed computer, I would have a backup drive for the moment.

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Answer 7

a brody

Level 10

82,991 points

Dec 21, 2012 10:29 AM in response to schmunzelmonster

A USB 3 hub is not smart as far as readability because the Powerbook does not support USB 3. You want a USB 2 hub. As for damaging the logicboard it is more likely to do this if you jam the cable in the port the wrong way, than just by simply plugging in the cable. Accidentally tripping on the cable causing it to pull out the wrong way can also damage the logicboard. Keep it clear of traffic.

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Answer 8

Allan Jones

Level 9

68,774 points

Dec 21, 2012 2:09 PM in response to schmunzelmonster

One old option for dealing with an old PB G4 PRAM battery is to power down the computer, remove the main battery, and let the computer sit that way on wall power for 24-72 hours. The PRAM battery is technically rechargeable and some can get a little charge that way if they are only "mostly dead."

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Answer 9

Dec 22, 2012 8:20 AM in response to a brody

thanks!

ad USB 3.0 - I thought it was downward compatible. What I know now is that a USB2 hub does not work with a USB3 drive, same disconnection issues. I will see soon with my new great USB3 hub and this borrowed macbook pro 15" 2.2GHz 10.8.4.

ad pram battery reload, I will try that over the next few days.

Yesterday night I went through the list of things to do (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-20028330-263.html), and got it to boot after letting it chime 6 times with PRAM reset.

I could get to the console messages (that's all I know), then it froze again.

I got it to boot in verbose mode and it hung at jnl: unknown-dev: replay_journal: from: xxxx to xxxxxx (joffset0x749...). I googled that and found the recommendation to "boot from the install CD and reinstall OS X", because system may be corrupt.

It froze again while saving the console messages. It would boot once more; I thought it was fine and left it sleeping over night with lid closed -bad idea: when I came back, the sleep light was off (no pulsation) the fans were running and the pbook was hot.

I will let it load without battery over the next few days and then try to boot once more.

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Answer 10

Dec 22, 2012 8:35 AM in response to schmunzelmonster

sorry that was confusing and I cant edit the post any more.

Yesterday night I went through the list of things to do (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13727_7-20028330-263.html), and got it to boot after letting it chime 6 times with PRAM reset.

I could get to the console messages (that's all I know), then it froze again. shutdown with powerbutton. Console messages many and strange.

It would boot once more; I thought it was fine and left it sleeping over night with lid closed -bad idea: when I came back, the sleep light was off (no pulsation) the fans were running and the pbook was hot.

After cooling down for an hour, I got it to boot in verbose mode and it hung at jnl: unknown-dev: replay_journal: from: xxxx to xxxxxx (joffset0x749...). I googled that and found the recommendation to "boot from the install CD and reinstall OS X", because system may be corrupt.

It froze again while saving the console messages. So I cant access them right now.

I will let it load without battery over the next few days and then try to boot once more.

Good to know that it's probably not the canvio that damages a logic board. I'm nice to my hardware when I plug in things.

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Answer 11

Dec 28, 2012 6:04 AM in response to Allan Jones

Allan Jones wrote:

One old option for dealing with an old PB G4 PRAM battery is to power down the computer, remove the main battery, and let the computer sit that way on wall power for 24-72 hours. The PRAM battery is technically rechargeable and some can get a little charge that way if they are only "mostly dead."

ok done.

I booted it to the external fw800 CCClone drive successfully and CCC'ed the ccclone back (with archiving) to the internal hard drive successsfully. Then I ran Disk Utility and Repair for the internal drive, and it was fine. Then I went to Systems prefs, clicked on Startup disk, and it froze. The powerbook was also unusually warm.

So "recharging" the PRAM battery as you said likely helped, because it could complete the whole CCClone, 1.5 hours. Before, it would never stay unfrozen that long. My guess is that it's up to me to invest in a new PRAM battery with soldering iron from macfixit (or a used one with the case, but that is likely going to be as old as mine, so not smart).

That's now as solved as it gets, no? Thanks for the PRAM battery ideas and suggestions, I did not read that before when searching my symptoms.

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Answer 12

Dec 28, 2012 6:18 AM in response to schmunzelmonster

schmunzelmonster wrote:

The other part of the question was towards future use of the Toshiba Canvio. Can the external USB drive harm the logic board by drawing too much power? And if so, via a powered USB 3.0 hub, there will be no power spikes to the macbook?

as far as the toshiba canvio 3.0 1TB bus-powered is concerned, I just tried it: It works very nicely with or without powered USB hub on a new mac (MBP 2.2 i7 10.8.2, still with USB2.0). Have not tried cccloning, but copied a lot back and forth and it never disconnected, and it is very fast for USB. So the drive looks great if the computer is new enough, I guess.

My guess is that the logic board is fine, otherwise there would not be any successful bott attempts, but can imagine that three drives at once wanting power at startup could have emptied the PRAM battery, even though the powerbook was plugged in and battery full.

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