Q: wifi greyed out iphone 4s

 

Yes, I did come back.  I enjoy our discussions, vapor.

Where did I get the numbers for the iPhone 4S?  Why, the Apple Online Store.  And since the Apple Online Store only sells the 8GB iPhone 4S for $450, that was the reference I used.  I never quoted a direct price for the 64GB.

 

Yes you did, you said "An iPhone 4S 64GB would currently retail, if available from Apple, for $749, not $799."

 

 

New iPhone 4S 8GB from Apple: $450

Replacement iPhone 4S 8GB from Apple: $199

$199 is 44.2% of $450.  Therefore, that is a 55.8% discount. (Rounded to the nearest 0.1%, I hope you don't mind.)

 

What I quoted on my post that you took such offense to was:

For iPhone 4s = $199 (which is $250 less than a new iPhone 4s, i.e. 55% less than new retail)

 

So, I actually rounded DOWN the discount percentage.

 

But you claim that your wife has a 64GB iPhone 4S, which retailed for $799.  Perhaps it did at the time of sale.  And that's fine.  Doesn't mean that would be the current price from Apple.  And that's really beside the point, as I'll show later. (Remember to look for the 1.6% difference!)

 

$199 is 24.9% of $799.  Therefore, in YOUR situation, it is a 75.1% discount.  And that's a much larger discount than what I originally quoted, for any iPhone replacement, in my original post.

 

So you are saying Apple is rippping off people with less than 64GB? If they had a 8GB they pay the same as I would with a 64G? Doesn't seem fair!

 

Additionally, Apple provides a new or like-new replacement, depending on stock availability.  If the only available replacement iPhone 4S 64GB units are new in the box, then that's what you would get.  And a replacement unit has either the remaining warranty of the original, or 90-days, whichever is greater.

 

Now, as far as my 'extrapolation' of what the best estimate would be for an iPhone 4S 64GB direct from Apple?  I simply used logic and common sense, combined with observation of past pricing structure of Apple.  Traditionally, each 'doubling' of memory capacity of an iPhone increases the retail price by $100.  And that pricing structure remains true, for the iPhone 5C & 5S, as I demonstrated.  Therefore, the best estimate, in the absence of a posted price by Apple, is $750.

 

You say $799.  I say $750.  In the end, that's a 1.6% difference in the discount.  I find it amusing that you're quibbling over such a small percentage difference.

 

You are the one that corrected my retail price and then gave all kinds of examples...I didn't quibble until you did.

While you used logic and common sense, I used facts.

 

Now, as far as why anyone would want to spend $100 to double the memory?  Um... you did.  When the iPhone 4S 64GB was available, so were the 32GB & 16 GB versions.  So, you didn't just pay $100 to double your memory.  You paid $200 to quadruple your memory.  If you wanted a phone with an SD card slot, then why did you not purchase one? 

 

Because the Galaxy S4 wasn't out yet. Just kidding, because I always bought the latest and greatest iPhones when I had an upgrade due. I would have done the same this time, but this issue changed my mind and made me think about other companies now.

 

 

As far as why to get AppleCare Plus?  That's a personal decision.  Not everyone uses a credit card that provides that kind of protection.  And no credit card company provides technical troubleshooting and how-to assistance by phone for an iPhone.  That's why I said, either get AppleCare Plus or a third-party option.

 

In the end, if you chose NO protection, then that's on you.

 

why pay for it if you dont need it? Technical troubleshooting, isn't this is what this board is for? It's free as well.

 

I do not see that Radio Shack offers the iPhone 4S 64GB.  I see 8GB and 16GB, but no 64GB.  That's probably because they 32GB & 64GB were discontinued third-quarter 2012, and most retailers will not have them.

 

The Radio Shack comment was a joke, figured you would get it.

 

And I do see that Best Buy offers an iPhone 4S 64GB for $799.  That's great!  So, you can either get that from Best Buy, and have a fresh new one-year warranty, eligible for extended hardware coverage through Apple or Best Buy (I think Best Buy offers some form of protection, you might want to look into that), or get a replacement from Apple for $199 that has a 90-day, non extendable warranty.

 

I just used Best Buy to give you the correct retail price...not a made up price using your "logic". Why would anyone buy the phone for $799 without a contract? Common sense!

 

Finally, let's get back to the beginning.  My original post was in reply to jschuler, who stated that all Apple would do is offer to sell a customer a NEW iPhone.  And that's not true at all.

 

Funny, even Apple told me I would get a new phone, different packaging, but it is a new phone. http://youtu.be/0DwY452C_sw?t=27m24s

 

 

It's amusing how you try to dismantle my responses, yet fail each time.

 

Ha

 

 

So, to sum up:

A) I never quoted a specific Apple retail price for the iPhone 4S 64GB.  I provided an estimate, based upon previous and current Apple pricing structure.

 

B) Your criticism of anyone that would want to double memory for $100 on an iPhone instead of purchasing a smartphone with an SD slot is humorously ironic, since you state that your wife bought an iPhone 4S 64GB, when the 32GB & 16GB were available.

 

C) Replacements from Apple are always new or like-new (i.e. remanufactured).  A remanufactured iPhone has all new parts, except for the camera & processor, which are reclaimed units that must pass a more rigorous inspection by an individual Apple Technician, instead of an assembly line inspection process.  This is different than refurbished, which uses far more 'used' parts, and a refurbished iPhone that is not provided by Apple (i.e., a wireless carrier providing a refurbished device) is NOT covered at all under Apple's warranty.

 

D) My final comment regarding getting coverage for an $800 phone was in direct reply to your original purchase price, which may or may not have been $799/$800. 

 

A) See above

B) See above

C) See above

D) See above

 

If you decide to purchase that Best Buy iPhone 4S 64GB, I strongly suggest learning from your previous mistake, and obtain SOME form of coverage for the device.

 

Also...See above

 

Best of luck!  And switch to decaf.

Really? You are spending all this time arguing unless percentage numbers and discounts for what? I forgot already....and I need decaf? I don't even drink coffee.

Please stop arguing about this and spam this thread. It is irrelevant now because Apple offers only 8GB 4s models and who would buy this ??? Everything else are refurbishments... I don't want such replacement. I read that Apple continues to make 4s 8GB models for Indian market because they are relativelly cheap. So maybe that's the reason why they are still available.

Let's get back to this topic and dicuss about wifi issues we all have and possible fixes for that

Misiak wrote:

 

Please stop arguing about this and spam this thread. It is irrelevant now because Apple offers only 8GB 4s models and who would buy this ??? Everything else are refurbishments... I don't want such replacement. I read that Apple continues to make 4s 8GB models for Indian market because they are relativelly cheap. So maybe that's the reason why they are still available.

 

Let's get back to this topic and dicuss about wifi issues we all have and possible fixes for that

First, you're replying to dj rover25.

Second, who would want an iPhone 4S 8GB?  Lots of people.  That's why Apple still has it available in the U.S.

Third, Apple still manufactures the 4S 8GB for U.S., not just 'India'.

Finally, the possible fixes have all been explained.  The associated troubleshooting article has been posted many, many times.  But in case you need it, here it is again: iOS: Wi-Fi settings grayed out or dim - Support - Apple

Other than that (or perhaps restoring as new and testing again: iOS: How to back up your data and set up your device as a new device), you contact Apple for support.

If within warranty, the replacement should be free.

If not, it will probably cost $199 USD + tax.

That's it.  Honest.  All of these posts about heating it, freezing it, etc.  All of those are non-supported methods.  If you attempt them, or get a non-authorized third-party to service the device, the warranty and related warranty options are voided.  Use at your own risk, and technically, they shouldn't even be on this forum or this thread.  But this thread has become so cubersome, the Hosts aren't really bothering to check it anymore, except for really extreme violations.

Use the Apple methods, or strike out on your own.  I truly wish anyone and everyone the best of luck, and woudn't wish this issue on anyone.  But the reality is, if you're outside of warranty, you either pay the out-of-warranty fee, purchase a new device (Apple or non-Apple), live with the problem, or seek third party help.

vaportrails2002 wrote:

 

*snip*

You're right.  I said 'if available from Apple'.  Therefore, I was not quoting a currently available price point.  I was providing an educated guess.  An estimate, based upon past and current pricing structures.  All of the current iPhone pricing structures support that 'x2 memory = +$100' estimate.  Even the iPad Air and iPad mini with Retina Display, and the iPod Touch 5th generation with iSight Camera follow the exact same progression.  Double the memory, increase by $100.

In reference to the replacement price being the same regardless of the memory capacity, you have an interesting take on it.  So, what you're saying is that you would like the replacement cost of an iPhone 4S to be as follows?

iPhone 4S 8GB: $199

iPhone 4S 16GB: $299

iPhone 4S 32GB: $399

iPhone 4S 64GB: $499

Hmm.  Interesting.  From my perspective, they make the replacement cost $199, and then do not charge any extra for having a higher memory capacity.  But it sounds like you want Apple to charge MORE?  Well, that's your opinion, I guess.  Feel free to provide that feedback to Apple at www.apple.com/feedback.

As far as using facts... what facts can you provide as to what the retail price, from Apple, would be for an iPhone 4S 64GB?

As far as why to use Apple Support for troubleshooting instead of this forum, that's a valid question.  And in fact, Apple wants users to try the support articles and forum before calling Apple Support if they do not have current technical support available.  That's why they charge $19 if you are outside of your 90-days of complimentary support, and don't have AppleCare.

To be fair, there are troubleshooting steps that Apple Support has access to that this forum does not, such as remote diagnostics for example.  Of course, you can always go to an Apple Store, but that requires an appointment, as well as there being a store that is conveniently located.  Depending on an individual's preferences, they make that decision.  Plus, this forum can't help to extend the hardware coverage, or to fix a physically damaged device.  And there are many, many times where the only resolution is to call Apple Support.  There are thousands of posts here that make that recommendation when all other troubleshooting steps have failed.

And I got the Radio Shack joke.  It just wasn't very funny.

You provided the correct BEST BUY retail price.  Not the Apple retail price.  And for my original post, we were talking about the Apple Store options.

And as far as why anyone would pay that much for a phone, without a contract?  Here's a protip: you pay that much for an iPhone with a contract.  You just don't pay it all up front.  You get a discounted price, but the wireless carrier includes the rest of the cost of the device in your wireless plan.  They just don't annotate it separately, nor do they discount your service after the two year contract is up.  So, after that two years (or however long your contract is), you're still paying for the iPhone, but you don't know it.  But it is possible to approach that point with your wireless carrier, and get them to modify your monthly bill, if you know to ask, and explain it properly.

I don't know what Apple told you.  Perhaps you were one of the people that the only available replacements were new devices.  If Apple doesn't have any remanufactured devices for replacement, then you'd get a new one.  Different packaging or not.

So, just to clarify, your position is that you want Apple to INCREASE the Out-Of-Warranty replacement costs for iPhone 4S units that have greater than 8GB capacity?

Nope, if they charge $199 for the 64GB OOW replacement, then they should take $100 off for each memory downgraded 4s. That's using your logic, theories  and guesses.

iPhone 4S 8GB: Apple pays you $101

iPhone 4S 16GB: Apple pays you $1

iPhone 4S 32GB: $99

iPhone 4S 64GB: $199

Why not? Or if you have a bad 8GB, give them a 64GB since it's the same price. Why punish the user for the manufacturers mistake!?

I will observe and post here...

The first time I heated my phone with a hairdryer, it lasted for about 2 months...

But then the next, the duration became shorter, about a week or just days....

One thing I noticed is that after heating, exposing the phone to cold temp like aircon will disable the wifi faster, but when it bocomes very cold wifi will start working again...

vaportrails2002 wrote:

 

Nope, if they charge $199 for the 64GB OOW replacement, then they should take $100 off for each memory downgraded 4s. That's using your logic, theories  and guesses.

 

iPhone 4S 8GB: Apple pays you $101

iPhone 4S 16GB: Apple pays you $1

iPhone 4S 32GB: $99

iPhone 4S 64GB: $199

 

Why not? Or if you have a bad 8GB, give them a 64GB since it's the same price. Why punish the user for the manufacturers mistake!?

Why should an out-of-warranty replacement result in an automatic upgrade worth up to $300?

It's so hilarious that you're even proposing this.  I'm now convinced that you're not looking for any kind of fair & equitable arrangement.  You're looking to find fault anywhere and everywhere.

You'd obviously be much happier with a different smartphone.  I think you need to switch brands.

Most tech companies don't even offer a reduced cost out-of-warranty option.  Apple's not required to offer ANY out-of-warranty options.  But they do.

You've now strayed over into the absurd.  Apple should pay a customer that breaks their iPhone screen?  So, if I have an iPhone 4S 8GB and break my screen, Apple should not only replace the device, but also give me $101?  Wow, I can retire early!  I'll just go purchase a bunch of second-hand iPhone 4S 8GBs, break them all, and then get them all replaced and get $101 per device.  Then, rinse & repeat, over and over.  I'll be retired to the Bahamas in no time!

And how is it Apple's fault that a user doesn't report a defect within the warranty time frame, or if a customer breaks their own phone?  

You know what, don't bother to respond.  You don't want to have an actual conversation.  You just want to reamin ignorant and irrational.  You're such an angry & petty person, that refuses to take any personal responsibility.  You contradict yourself constantly, and are not looking for an actual solution.

I suggest you get a lawyer and sue Apple, and demand your 'free phone'.  It seems like that's all you care about; some form of petty revenge.  And that's just... sad really.  It must be difficult to go through life like that.  Blaming everyone for your mistakes, and demanding the rest of society take care of you and pay for your errors.

Go buy an Android, and try to be happy.  Life's too short to get all worked up on froth at the mouth like you're doing.

Intersesting... And yes, the freezing method also works but it is very short. First time I've put the mobile into a freezer and the wifi worked until the phone heated up a bit. So this reverts any claims that heating method somehow "resets" a chip. This is a complete ********, there is no switch to reset...

@TJBUSMC1973 Here is one big difference. The problem is that Apple sell brand new products which are faulty or become faulty because of new software which the phone can't handle. This is the same as if I would borrow you a phone for testing and you will return it broken to me. Warranty or not, you screwed it so you have to pay for it!

If Apple sells you a defective device, then it's your responsibility, as the consumer, to report that defect to the manufacturer during the agreed upon warranty time.

When you bought the device, you agreed to the terms of the warranty.  You agreed that, if there is any defect, you would report it to the manufacturer during the one-year hardware warranty, and they would replace the device for free.  After that time, you have no warranty coverage.

These were the terms that were presented to you at time of purchase.  If you were not comfortable with those terms, then you should not have completed the transaction.

The software did not cause the issue.  Wifi greyed out has been around for a long, long time.  And none of the operating systems caused it.

What may have caused it (and until you get the device diagnosed, you are operating under an assumption based upon circumstantial evidence) is the heat generated by the processor, which increases during any heavy use.  Ever hear the cooling fan on your computer get louder at certain times, espcially during a long download?  That's because the processor gets warmer, and the fan kicks on to keep it cool.

Now, if your fan was broken, and then during the download the computer died, was it the DOWNLOAD that was the problem?  No.  It woudn't matter what you were downloading.  It was the processor generating heat that causes the issue.

In these iPhones, the same wi-fi greyed out can occur from multiple sources.  Some people have reported that their wi-fi greyed out, with no iOS update or App update or download involved, just hotter than normal conditions.  Some peope have reported that after tried to update a lot of Apps at one time, this happened.

It's not the code or the software.  It's the processor generating heat, and the wi-fi chip in question being defective all along.

Here's a hint; instead of trying to blame the software, which is not the culprit, blame the defective wi-fi chip.  If you're out of warranty, try to request an exception based on that.

i.e.: "If the wi-fi chip was defective from the very beginning, and only the process of an iOS update would create enough stress to reveal this defect, then there was no way for me to report this defect during the normal warranty period.  No other operations on the iPhone created enough stress to reveal this defect, which was present all along.  Therefore, because the device was defective from day of purchase, but there was no way for me to test for that defect, it was impossible for me to report it prior to it being revealed.  The fact that it only revealed after the warranty expired should not infringe upon the validity of my claim."

If you stick to the idea that the iOS 'broke' the wi-fi, then you'll lose, because the terms of the iOS update make it clear that you are responsible for anything and everythig related to the iOS update.  But if you approach it from the idea that the wifi chip was defective, and ANY excessive heat could have revealed the defect, you've got a shot.

That's why I've been saying all along to address the hardware, not the software.  It can't be the software, because not every iPhone 4S or other iOS device running the EXACT SAME SOFTWARE has this problem.

If you blame the iOS, you'll get nowhere.

If you blame the wi-fi chip and the heat, you might get somewhere.

TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

 

vaportrails2002 wrote:

 

Nope, if they charge $199 for the 64GB OOW replacement, then they should take $100 off for each memory downgraded 4s. That's using your logic, theories  and guesses.

 

iPhone 4S 8GB: Apple pays you $101

iPhone 4S 16GB: Apple pays you $1

iPhone 4S 32GB: $99

iPhone 4S 64GB: $199

 

Why not? Or if you have a bad 8GB, give them a 64GB since it's the same price. Why punish the user for the manufacturers mistake!?

 

Why should an out-of-warranty replacement result in an automatic upgrade worth up to $300?

 

It's so hilarious that you're even proposing this.  I'm now convinced that you're not looking for any kind of fair & equitable arrangement.  You're looking to find fault anywhere and everywhere.

 

You'd obviously be much happier with a different smartphone.  I think you need to switch brands.

 

Most tech companies don't even offer a reduced cost out-of-warranty option.  Apple's not required to offer ANY out-of-warranty options.  But they do.

 

You've now strayed over into the absurd.  Apple should pay a customer that breaks their iPhone screen?  So, if I have an iPhone 4S 8GB and break my screen, Apple should not only replace the device, but also give me $101?  Wow, I can retire early!  I'll just go purchase a bunch of second-hand iPhone 4S 8GBs, break them all, and then get them all replaced and get $101 per device.  Then, rinse & repeat, over and over.  I'll be retired to the Bahamas in no time!

 

And how is it Apple's fault that a user doesn't report a defect within the warranty time frame, or if a customer breaks their own phone?  

 

You know what, don't bother to respond.  You don't want to have an actual conversation.  You just want to reamin ignorant and irrational.  You're such an angry & petty person, that refuses to take any personal responsibility.  You contradict yourself constantly, and are not looking for an actual solution.

 

I suggest you get a lawyer and sue Apple, and demand your 'free phone'.  It seems like that's all you care about; some form of petty revenge.  And that's just... sad really.  It must be difficult to go through life like that.  Blaming everyone for your mistakes, and demanding the rest of society take care of you and pay for your errors.

 

Go buy an Android, and try to be happy.  Life's too short to get all worked up on froth at the mouth like you're doing.

You take everything so serious. It's quite obvious you don't understand the whole sarcasm thing. To understand it, please look above you....it just flew over your head

Take a minute and read your posts again, do they seem rational? How long did you spend figuring all that stuff out with percentages and everything? Give it a rest! Personal responsibility? Really? For what, downloading iOS7 to the phone and having it mess up the battery and wifi? I only did what Apple wanted me to do....and don't give the same "it's your responsibilty and Apple doesn't agree with that statement because we agreed to their iOS terms" BS.

Anyway I only blame Apple for their mistake and want them to pay for their errors...that's it. Fix the phone, that is all I ever said I wanted for me and the rest here. No free phones, no free upgrades...just fix the phone so it works like it did before we all put iOS7 on it.

I told you before, I only reply to your posts because you come up with some silly comments, so I just try to top your silliness! You keep coming back saying the same thing over and over again about the warranty and how Apple is right and we are all wrong. Well apparently I disagree along with everyone else on here except you.

I never said Apple was right.  I never said I agree with their warranty.  I've said I think the warranty should be longer than one year, but I made the purchasing decision to get my warranty extended via AppleCare.  My options at time of purchase were:

A) Not purchase the device.

B) Purchase the device and be content with a one-year warranty.

C) Purchase the device and have some form of additional coverage.

I went with option C.

There's a difference between what I would like and what is the reality.  I would like the Apple warranty to be longer than one year.  But it's not.  So, I made my decision based on reality, not what I 'wish' would happen.

I've even stated the best way to get Apple to resolve this issue.

In warranty, it should be free.

Not in warranty, it will cost between $149 and $269, depending on the model.

If that is not a viable option, request an exception by calling Apple Support and talking to a supervisor.

I've even given a script to use to have the best chance of getting an exception.  Read my last post.

What more, exactly, do you want?  You want me to agree that you get to automatically ignore the warranty, without making any kind of effort or request?  No.

If you want the warranty changed, give feedback to Apple.

If you want the consumer laws changed, give feedback to your representatives.

If you want your device serviced, either pay the fee, or request the exception like I've explained.

I have an iPhone 4s, iOS 7.0.4, and the wireless has been grayed out for about 3 weeks.  At the same time my wife has the same phone, purchased the same day, and using iOS 7.0.3 but the wireless is operational.

Last week I visited a local Apple store and was told that since my phone is out of warranty (Aug 2013) there was nothing that could be done for me.  I could pay to get my phone replaced or i could go to my wireless provider and see if they would do an upgrade which would be for a fee. 

During the discussion I asked whether the tech thought it was the antenna.  He said that since the antenna used in the iPhone is used by a lot of other smart phones he did not thing the antenna was the issue.

Since I had tried almost all the other remedies mentioned in various forums, I went home to contemplate trying the heating or freezing suggestions.

Much to my surprise, today my wireless began funtioning again.  I don't remember what I was doing but the phone presented me with the wireless access points available to me and I chose my own and then typed in the password.  The phone connected wirelessly to the internet.

That sort of makes you wonder if Apple downloaded a fix while my iPhone was syncing.

No matter how it happened, it makes the idea that the problem was hardware highly unlikely.  If not hardware, then software? 

Unless there is an explanation from Apple that it has quietly provided a fix but not by iOS updating, one wonders why the mystery?

I suppose one should be grateful the wireless works again, but who knows for how long?

If it was the software, then ALL iPhone 4S units running iOS 7 would have the same issue.  And that's not the case.

Hardware can have defects that cause intermittent issues.  The bane of any electronics technician is the 'CND'; Could Not Duplicate. 

Your iOS doesn't update while syncing to iTunes, unless you tell iTunes to update or restore the iPhone.

TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

 

I never said Apple was right.  I never said I agree with their warranty.  I've said I think the warranty should be longer than one year, but I made the purchasing decision to get my warranty extended via AppleCare.  My options at time of purchase were:

A) Not purchase the device.

B) Purchase the device and be content with a one-year warranty.

C) Purchase the device and have some form of additional coverage.

 

I went with option C.

 

There's a difference between what I would like and what is the reality.  I would like the Apple warranty to be longer than one year.  But it's not.  So, I made my decision based on reality, not what I 'wish' would happen.

 

I've even stated the best way to get Apple to resolve this issue.

In warranty, it should be free.

Not in warranty, it will cost between $149 and $269, depending on the model.

If that is not a viable option, request an exception by calling Apple Support and talking to a supervisor.

I've even given a script to use to have the best chance of getting an exception.  Read my last post.

 

What more, exactly, do you want?  You want me to agree that you get to automatically ignore the warranty, without making any kind of effort or request?  No.

 

If you want the warranty changed, give feedback to Apple.

If you want the consumer laws changed, give feedback to your representatives.

If you want your device serviced, either pay the fee, or request the exception like I've explained.

Now that's a rational response!

I wonder how true all this is (with the warranty info, etc)?

http://www.businessinsider.com/genius-bar-apple-store-secrets-2012-1?op=1

vaportrails2002 wrote:

 

TJBUSMC1973 wrote:

 

I never said Apple was right.  I never said I agree with their warranty.  I've said I think the warranty should be longer than one year, but I made the purchasing decision to get my warranty extended via AppleCare.  My options at time of purchase were:

A) Not purchase the device.

B) Purchase the device and be content with a one-year warranty.

C) Purchase the device and have some form of additional coverage.

 

I went with option C.

 

There's a difference between what I would like and what is the reality.  I would like the Apple warranty to be longer than one year.  But it's not.  So, I made my decision based on reality, not what I 'wish' would happen.

 

I've even stated the best way to get Apple to resolve this issue.

In warranty, it should be free.

Not in warranty, it will cost between $149 and $269, depending on the model.

If that is not a viable option, request an exception by calling Apple Support and talking to a supervisor.

I've even given a script to use to have the best chance of getting an exception.  Read my last post.

 

What more, exactly, do you want?  You want me to agree that you get to automatically ignore the warranty, without making any kind of effort or request?  No.

 

If you want the warranty changed, give feedback to Apple.

If you want the consumer laws changed, give feedback to your representatives.

If you want your device serviced, either pay the fee, or request the exception like I've explained.

Now that's a rational response!

 

I wonder how true all this is (with the warranty info, etc)?

http://www.businessinsider.com/genius-bar-apple-store-secrets-2012-1?op=1

That article is a little out of date, but it still is fairly accurate.  It's odd that you now say my point is rational, when it's basically what I've been saying all along.  All I've added is a guide on how to ask for an exception.

By the way, I love your profile!  Very informative!  LOL