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Thunderbolt Hubs and docking stations

We are looking to buy MacBook Pro (Retina maybe). We have two displays that are DisplayLink.


Apple seems to be behind/non-existant on the docking station game...(not enough companies to make millions here i guess?) so I know they don't want to make that, but does any 3rd part company make a Docking Station that you can plug the MB into and have all the ports already plugged into the monitors?


From a cleanlyness standpoint this seems like something Apple would do yet the only thing they offer in this regard is buying one of their displays. A $1000 Thunderolt hub? works for oil barrons, but not the rest of the world.


Belkin has an interesting offer, though since its not out yet, it's hard to know how that functions... do you plug in the Thunderbolt in the front? and then the back plugs just all work? is it that easy? if so it might be worth $200-300

http://www.belkin.com/us/thunderbolt


But it is amazing that Apple doen't offer a simple 20 ($30 apple prices) splitter.


i found 2 online after much dingging. is is discontinued and the other is out of stock. both look questionalbe with regard to quality.



So, am i missing something? Apple put all R&D and marketing into Thunderbolt got business to be the end of the chain, but over looked the middle?


Any help would be greatly appreciated.


thanks.

Posted on Jan 7, 2013 1:36 PM

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Posted on Jan 7, 2013 1:38 PM

The belkin one isn't out yet but its probably going to be your best bet.

190 replies

Jul 24, 2013 10:06 AM in response to Csound1

Csound1 wrote:


instead of believing promises of many TB devices soon to come



Who promised you that, and do you know how many TB devices already exist?

You can't really be serious. How many TB product delays have been widely discussed on the Internet, not the least of which is the famous Belkin product you frequently mention as an example "solution"?


Yes, there are "many" TB devices today, not one of which under $100 has a second TB port.

Jul 24, 2013 10:09 AM in response to xgrep

Once more this is all about money, The tech works (I use 3 hard drives off of one TB port, it was not cheap but it works very well)


(iMac, TB to Helios E2 external drive connected to 2 more E2 drives,) I have also added a Belkin so my connection possibilities are endless)


There are things that I can't afford (1967 275 Nart Spider) but I don't whine about it on the Ferrari forums.

Jul 24, 2013 10:11 AM in response to xgrep

xgrep wrote:


Csound1 wrote:


instead of believing promises of many TB devices soon to come



Who promised you that, and do you know how many TB devices already exist?

You can't really be serious. How many TB product delays have been widely discussed on the Internet, not the least of which is the famous Belkin product you frequently mention as an example "solution"?


Yes, there are "many" TB devices today, not one of which under $100 has a second TB port.

The Belkin has been on sale for a couple of months now, I have one and plan on adding a second.


Why don't you complain to the manufacturers of TB devices rather than here?

Jul 24, 2013 10:20 AM in response to Csound1

Csound1 wrote:


Once more this is all about money, The tech works (I use 3 hard drives off of one TB port, it was not cheap but it works very well)


Yes, it is about money. Do you find that distasteful or somehow degrading to the technology? Do you think that maybe Apple and Intel don't care about the money they get from us "little folks"?


You know, when I was in college, there were a lot of kids from absurdly wealthy families at my school. When those of us of ordinary (or sub-ordinary) means used to commiserate about how expensive things were in that town, the rich kids used to say things like "all you think about is money". Then they would jet off to ski in Europe for the winter break, while many of us remained on campus working jobs to pay for the part of the tuition that our scholarships and loans wouldn't cover. We were grateful to be able to attend such a good school, but didn't appreciate being criticized for "always thinking about money".

Jul 24, 2013 10:26 AM in response to xgrep

xgrep wrote:


Csound1 wrote:


Once more this is all about money, The tech works (I use 3 hard drives off of one TB port, it was not cheap but it works very well)


Yes, it is about money. Do you find that distasteful or somehow degrading to the technology? Do you think that maybe Apple and Intel don't care about the money they get from us "little folks"?

No, but I find it totally inappropriate, this is a Tech support site, not a Financial support site.


You have 2 choices if you can't afford something, get a loan or go without, blaming Apple for the price of items they do not manufacture simply because you can't afford them is, ...... you know.


It's Intel's system, go complain there.

Jul 24, 2013 10:43 AM in response to Csound1

Csound1 wrote:

Yes, it is about money. Do you find that distasteful or somehow degrading to the technology?

No, but I find it totally inappropriate, this is a Tech support site, not a Financial support site.


You have 2 choices if you can't afford something, get a loan or go without, blaming Apple for the price of items they do not manufacture simply becasue you can't afford them is, ...... you know.


We are discussing, here, the availability of products, based on TB technology, with features *and prices* that satisfy perceived market requirements.


Technology never stands on its own; it's inseparably linked with marketing. "Moore's Law" is a principle that relates technology and price. The direction that technology takes (and has taken) has everything to do with price. Few will buy technology, no matter how good, if its price doesn't match market perception of what it should be. Saying that discussion involving price is inappropriate is absurd. Technology can (and almost always does) solve pricing problems, and TB is no exception.


There's a third choice: wait until economies of scale bring the price of TB products into more mainstream range. That's not the same as "go without". And it *will* solve the current TB problem.


You don't want to hear about money problems; you find all talk of money distasteful and "inappropriate". Others on this forum may not share your disdain for discussion about price on a technology forum.

Jul 24, 2013 11:16 AM in response to Csound1

There's some truth to that: you are among the market leaders who are willing to buy when a new technology is still at a premium price point. The rest of us sheep will eventually follow you into the market (some kicking and screaming).


What's important and valuable about this discussion, and others like it, is that it's useful feedback to the vendors, so that they can gauge market perception and identify opportunities. Vendors take risks and make an investment by offering products at retail prices that don't cover the up-front R&D costs, in the expectation that (1) the costs to them will come down with volume and incremental improvements, and (2) the volumes will ramp up enough so that the slimmer margins during mainstream pricing will generate enough profit to cover the sunk R&D costs.


This is all normal and good. And these discussions are an important source of market data that help guide product strategy. Don't imagine that Apple and Intel host these forums purely so that their products can be supported without them having to maintain armies of tech support (though that's a big reason, too).


If you want only posts by people who want to discuss the technical points and won't complain about price, the forum will be somewhat less valuable as a source of market information. It will also be somewhat less useful to mainstream buyers who are looking for solutions that they can afford.


So yes, we appreciate that you paid the high price so that the volumes can ramp up and the costs will come down. Just allow us our place in the market, too, so that we can stick around and buy in the volumes that allow the vendors to recover their R&D investment. Because if that doesn't happen with Thunderbolt, new technologies will be introduced at a much slower pace.

Jul 24, 2013 11:35 AM in response to xgrep

Clearly I can't disagree with that, but it is not really a tech problem. That aside I also do not want to see a hub and spoke model adopted for TB either. Firewire is an excellent example of a 'daisy chain' system that works, let's push for 2 ports on all TB peripherals. The HDD's that I use have 2 ports, and the system works exceptionally well, I bought the Belkin because of all the other interfaces included (I still use FireWire for all of my older drives etc)


TB is never going to be as cheap as older interfaces, 20Gb/s over copper is a tough engineering task (and leads to lots of complaints about the cost of the cable). Such cost is not appropriate for many less demanding tasks, it is a premium interface and although it (hopefully) will decrease in price it will never plumb the depths of USB (which at 5Gb/s is fast enough for just about everything)


And as the maximum speed from TB could be as high as 100Gb/s (unlikely over copper) I can see a bright but not cheap future for it.

Jul 24, 2013 2:03 PM in response to cpage

A couple of things to keep in perspective-


1. Technically it is true this problem didnt exist before, with respect to the MBA family. The previous MBA lacked any facility for FireWire at all, much less whether we could hook up a FW drive and a external display without spending $300 for a hub.


2. If you don't enjoy this discussion, please just stop following it rather than telling us what is or is not appropriate to post. These boards are modded pretty heavily already, if anyone breaks the rules here I'm sure it will be dealt with regardless of your input.


3. By complaining here we actually are complaining to a peripheral manufacturer- Apple. From reading most posts in this thread there seems to be a clear opportunity to sell a 'premium' FireWire adapter that has an additional TB port to allow for daisy chaining. It will cost more than the current adapter, but will cost far less than the $300 Belkin one. That would solve the problem for almost everyone here.


Changing the DP port to TB was definitely a good move. But right now the lack of well implemented peripherals hobbles its potential, unnecessarily.

Jul 24, 2013 4:06 PM in response to Stephen Lang

With the MBA, the USB->TB was a big advantage. The MBA has always been very port limited, but TB allows peripherals that would've maxed out USB's bandwidth in no time. It also introduced the possibility of using FW800 (via Apple's adapter), something previously never possible.


I don't think the docks are unfairly priced given their feature set and what I imagine the economies of scale to be around them, not that they couldn't come down more in price still, but they aren't exorbitantly priced for what they do offer. But people here want a hub, the hub won't be USB prices. That wouldn't be possible, FW Hub's never were USB prices either and FW was more mainstream a technology, so a TB hub will be expensive if produced, just more affordable by comparison to full on docks.


All that said, I find the concerns over price interesting. Apple is a premium price (and premium quality?) hardware producer, they long have been. The budget concious have typically gone the PC/Android route and either just settled for the problems it comes with or looked to make the most of what it could do. So it can't be considered inconsistent for high prices on Apple accessories.


The point was raised that TB is a high bandwidth product with high engineering costs, so this has to have an impact on the cost to produce these devices. I am disappointed though that Apple hasn't assisted companies in producing more accessories though.


But as FW800 requirements go, the Apple TB->FW adapter is comparably cheap to any dock and does support daisy chaining, so with this adapter it's similar to a MBA+FW800 port. So to the price concious needing FW this is still an option. Haven't tried it with FW monitors, but with FW HDDs, I did daisy chain them and they mounted fine.


Problem here is for all these posts, spanning over 7 pages now, we still haven't seen any action from any companies to service the 'low end' of the market, and all the having a go at each other isn't doing anything to change that, maybe people should look to petition these manufacturers to make what we want??

Jul 24, 2013 4:35 PM in response to Cyberwlf

First, I have to ask: in what way does apple's $29 TB-FW800 adapter support daisychaining? If you're going to say "by plugging in at the end of a chain and terminating that chain", I'm sorry, but that doesn't meet anyone's chain requirement.


Apple's price premium has been on the order of 10-20%, sometimes more, but sometimes actually competitive (some of the Minis were very attractive value). You're absolutely right that TB should be considerably more expensive than USB (even 3.0), and somewhat more expensive than Firewire. But that would mean that if a FW hub cost, say $40-$60 (while USB is in the $10-$20 range), then the market will be looking for TB devices at the low end to be, say $70-$90. Not $300. That's far above "premium" for mainstream products. That kind of price could be expected for early adopters, not mainstream buyers (I'm asserting, here, that there are mainstream buyers who pay premium prices, which is exactly what most Apple customers are). Csound1 is an early adopter, which is a significant notch above a premium buyer. This is exactly the way the market works, and there's nothing unusual about the way TB has played out so far except for the timeline. And the many premature announcements by companies like Belkin and others.


We will hope to see TB devices at the low end in the $50-$100 range. These will not have all of the interfaces of the Belkin hub or anything else in the $200-$300 range (and up). They might be something like Apple's TB-FW adapter with a second TB port to allow chaining. Or maybe a TB-DVI adapter with a second TB port. To support chaining!


As to this discussion, rapidly closing in on 8 pages, stuff (especially hardware) takes time. The fact that we haven't seen products doesn't mean vendors don't know we're out here complaining. And *you* don't know which vendors I've contacted with product suggestions and feedback (most of them in the list given at the beginning of this thread, in fact). This discussion is constructive on many levels. Except when people dismiss others as being irrelevant or inappropriate when they express their frustration with what has been, as I said, an unusually long timeline for mainstream products to arrive for a new technology. Bluetooth was pretty slow getting there, too, but it didn't promise nearly as much early on.


Expectations were set very high with TB, especially since Apple had its TB monitor/hub at day 1, leading many people, including myself, to take the plunge with a new MBA, only to find myself two years later still without a decent way to use my FW800 disk array without shelling out early-adopter amounts of money. At over two years out, we are expecting to see a lot more products in lower price brackets. They aren't there, and this will cause many people to be more cautious with future innovations.

Thunderbolt Hubs and docking stations

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