Q: 2011 MacBook Pro and Discrete Graphics Card

Good Info SkyHawk-YQB !!

If possible, it might be worthwhile to nail/quantize this "change/ perf degradation" down w/ some graphic benchmark scores, under 3 version of OSX. 10.6.6, 10.9.5 and 10.10.2

@CSound1 - Any expert observation, insights or pointers you could share, to other similar measurements? It will be much appreciated.

So, you're saying that they have further hobbled the machine?

Sadly, from a business perspective, that would make sense; cheaper to do that than to design/test/manufacture a new logic board/GPU/cooling system for a 4 year-old model that they no longer sell. So I guess we have to put them to intensive use (if that was the reason for buying the machine) and see if the repair stands up?

My MBP was old enough that I was starting to look handing it down or selling it and buying a newer model, but I held off because of a lack of confidence in both the machines and the current (and recent) OS; I think I'll wait and see how the repairs stand up. I'm glad Apple have finally acknowledged and addressed the issue, but I'm still angry about the years of silence and being plain lied to at the Genius Bar. All that grief just because of the year I chose to update my computer... At least I didn't waste money on a RAM/SSD upgrade.

Right now, I still don't feel I can spend £2000+ on a new MBP - I don't want to go through this again.

SkyHawk-YQB wrote:

 

UPDATE #2 after Repair

 

Like I mentioned earlier I was able to test my newly repaired Macbook Pro early 2011 with 3 version of OSX. 10.6.6, 10.9.5 and 10.10.2. Since it was mentioned before that Apple did provided a specific 10.6.7 update for macbook pro 2011 that was addressing GPU problem and might also reduce its performance to prevent this flaw to happen.

 

I can confirm that they did change something in the SOFTWARE and NOT the FIRMWARE or HARDWARE. I used Heaven Benchmark and terminal command to stress test GPU and CPU at the same time. On 10.6.6 GPU temp average 85C on load and as soon as I have more then 2 core of my CPU fully loaded the temperature raise quickly to 99C and computer freeze. Since 10.6.7, 10.9.5 and 10.10.2 GPU Average temp is 75C and even when I load all CPU and GPU to their max the temperature never got above 85C for GPU and 95C for CPU. So Apple did change something in the software to make the computer run 10C cooler. It could be the core frequency of the GPU that was lowered (under clocked) so in that case, we could see a 30% performance drop since 10.6.7 and the class-action lawsuit could still go forward on this since the advertised product was not the one we have.

 

As for the soldering flaw, so far my computer is working fine since the repair 3 days ago but 2 years passed on my previous logic board before I've seen the first problem with the GPU. I don't think Apple changed anything about the manufacturing of the logic board but only time will tell.

Please excuse me if this looks like getting the fly crap mixed with the pepper.

You mentioned when you used "more then 2 core of my CPU fully loaded the temperature raise quickly to 99C and computer freeze."  We might have two different problems being mixed together here.  The Central Processing Unit (CPU) has multiple cores while I am not aware of the AMD Graphic Processor Unit (GPU) having multiple cores too.

So could the problem you discovered be a CPU usage issue rather than a GPU issue?

I did some tests earlier today on my just returned from repair MBP and was able to get the CPU to 202 F (95 C) while getting the GPU to 170 (77 C) for a brief period.

I back off on the tests because with the 85W MagSafe attached I ran the battery down to 18%.  So I backed off and decided I will try another test tonight that gets the temps up without overloading the charging system too.

MGSH wrote:

 

So I guess we have to put them to intensive use (if that was the reason for buying the machine) and see if the repair stands up?

I think this is key. It's the only way to really way to get real answers.

Great information SkyHawk! Thanks for your input.

If Apple already under clocked the GPU by 30% since OS X 10.6.7, think of how big this 'design' error must be, since many logic boards got wasted long after this measure! If they now have to further decrease the performance of the GPU, I wonder what will be left of the original specs indeed.

vsingha2k wrote:

 

Good Info SkyHawk-YQB !!

If possible, it might be worthwhile to nail/quantize this "change/ perf degradation" down w/ some graphic benchmark scores, under 3 version of OSX. 10.6.6, 10.9.5 and 10.10.2

 

I'll try posting Heaven benchmark result on the 3 versions later today.

SkyHawk-YQB wrote:

 

UPDATE #2 after Repair

 

Like I mentioned earlier I was able to test my newly repaired Macbook Pro early 2011 with 3 version of OSX. 10.6.6, 10.9.5 and 10.10.2. Since it was mentioned before that Apple did provided a specific 10.6.7 update for macbook pro 2011 that was addressing GPU problem and might also reduce its performance to prevent this flaw to happen.

 

I can confirm that they did change something in the SOFTWARE and NOT the FIRMWARE or HARDWARE. I used Heaven Benchmark and terminal command to stress test GPU and CPU at the same time. On 10.6.6 GPU temp average 85C on load and as soon as I have more then 2 core of my CPU fully loaded the temperature raise quickly to 99C and computer freeze. Since 10.6.7, 10.9.5 and 10.10.2 GPU Average temp is 75C and even when I load all CPU and GPU to their max the temperature never got above 85C for GPU and 95C for CPU. So Apple did change something in the software to make the computer run 10C cooler. It could be the core frequency of the GPU that was lowered (under clocked) so in that case, we could see a 30% performance drop since 10.6.7 and the class-action lawsuit could still go forward on this since the advertised product was not the one we have.

 

As for the soldering flaw, so far my computer is working fine since the repair 3 days ago but 2 years passed on my previous logic board before I've seen the first problem with the GPU. I don't think Apple changed anything about the manufacturing of the logic board but only time will tell.

… so if I get your gist, you're saying that every system since 10.6.7 has been deliberately crippled… ?

On boot, they would therefore check to see if the computer is a 2011 (2012,2013) model, and if it corresponds the the given criteria, sabotage the system, but leave it alone for any other machine… ?

If this is really the case, they will also have to incorporate this "feature" into every future system update, until the given machines are no longer supported by the system version !!

This is admittedly possible to do, but if I had to implement this sort of hobbling, I would do my utmost to go the firmware route, unless it were impossible to do it that way. It would be done once and for all to the targeted machines, and you wouldn't need to come back to it! Doing it in the system software would make no sense…

jimoase wrote:

 

Please excuse me if this looks like getting the fly crap mixed with the pepper.

 

You mentioned when you used "more then 2 core of my CPU fully loaded the temperature raise quickly to 99C and computer freeze."  We might have two different problems being mixed together here.  The Central Processing Unit (CPU) has multiple cores while I am not aware of the AMD Graphic Processor Unit (GPU) having multiple cores too.

 

So could the problem you discovered be a CPU usage issue rather than a GPU issue?

 

I did some tests earlier today on my just returned from repair MBP and was able to get the CPU to 202 F (95 C) while getting the GPU to 170 (77 C) for a brief period.

 

I back off on the tests because with the 85W MagSafe attached I ran the battery down to 18%.  So I backed off and decided I will try another test tonight that gets the temps up without overloading the charging system too.

I don't think its a CPU issue since even without loading the CPU the GPU runs 10C lower on 10.9.5 and on 10.10 then on 10.6.6 and since the CPU and GPU are on the same heat pipes this temperature difference could be enough to avoid the overheat of the CPU and the freezing of the computer on 10.6.6 when both GPU and CPU are used. At my knowledge no GPU have multiples cores so when I was saying "using more then 2 cores" I was really talking about the 2 out of 4 core my I7 CPU have.

As for your temperature reading it's seems on par with mine on 10.6.7 and above even when maxing out GPU and CPU the temperature never rose above 80C for GPU and 95 for CPU. While on 10.6.6 GPU temps went up to 85C and CPU above the safety threshold of 100C resulting in computer freeze.  

I don't think its a CPU issue since even without loading the CPU the GPU runs 10C lower on 10.9.5 and on 10.10 then on 10.6.6

Have you considered the fact that systems are constantly being optimised, and that later versions could just be using ressources more efficiently… ?

Charles Houghton-Webb wrote:

 

… so if I get your gist, you're saying that every system since 10.6.7 has been deliberately crippled… ?

On boot, they would therefore check to see if the computer is a 2011 (2012,2013) model, and if it corresponds the the given criteria, sabotage the system, but leave it alone for any other machine… ?

If this is really the case, they will also have to incorporate this "feature" into every future system update, until the given machines are no longer supported by the system version !!

This is admittedly possible to do, but if I had to implement this sort of hobbling, I would do my utmost to go the firmware route, unless it were impossible to do it that way. It would be done once and for all to the targeted machines, and you wouldn't need to come back to it! Doing it in the system software would make no sense…

As posted on Apple website :

 

The Mac OS X 10.6.7 Update for MacBook Pro is recommended for all early 2011 MacBook Pro models.  It includes general operating system fixes for Mac OS X Snow Leopard that enhance the stability, compatibility, performance, and security of your Mac, including fixes that:

• Improve the reliability of Back to My Mac
• Resolve an issue when transferring files to certain SMB servers
• Address various minor Mac App Store bugs
• Address minor FaceTime performance issues
• Improve graphics stability and external display compatibility

See this article on how to verify the authenticity of this update.

 

For detailed information on this update, please visit this website: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4472

For information on the security content of this update, please visit: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1222

 

Note: This update is only for 2011 Early MacBook Pro computers.

The regular OSX 10.6.7 update doesn't mention anything about the last point "Improve graphics stability and external display compatibility"

Since 2011 Macbook have the AMD GPU and other Macbook are on NVIDIA I guess they just cripple the AMD driver software to run the GPU cooler. That would be very easy to do and no need to verify which system your computer have on startup just verify once on the update install and thats it.

If there is any third party GPU driver software for MAC OSX we could possibly confirm if the Apple driver is indeed under clocking the GPU to maintain temperature in the safe zone.

I just heard that in Italy the program will be available from Feb 27th on, I got an appointment for next week, when I am there I will ask what the repair is about, dunno if they gonna answer or not but I can sure open the computer, put a bit of ink somewhere on the MB and then check out again.

I can't believe it will happen, my 15" MBP with 16GB was a monster compared to the tiny and pretty MBA 11" with a mere 4GB am using now...

SkyHawk-YQB wrote:

The regular OSX 10.6.7 update doesn't mention anything about the last point "Improve graphics stability and external display compatibility"

 

Since 2011 Macbook have the and other Macbook are on NVIDIA I guess they just cripple the AMD driver software to run the GPU cooler. That would be very easy to do and no need to verify which system your computer have on startup just verify once on the update install and thats it.

 

If there is any third party GPU driver software for MAC OSX we could possibly confirm if the Apple driver is indeed under clocking the GPU to maintain temperature in the safe zone.

Yes. That would make more sense to me

It would still nevertheless imply "special" drivers for certain models, since other Macs use AMD graphic chips it would seem - for example 2014 iMacs…

I still think that, to go this route, it would have to have been impossible to do it in firmware.

Charles Houghton-Webb wrote:

 

SkyHawk-YQB wrote:

The regular OSX 10.6.7 update doesn't mention anything about the last point "Improve graphics stability and external display compatibility"

 

Since 2011 Macbook have the and other Macbook are on NVIDIA I guess they just cripple the AMD driver software to run the GPU cooler. That would be very easy to do and no need to verify which system your computer have on startup just verify once on the update install and thats it.

 

If there is any third party GPU driver software for MAC OSX we could possibly confirm if the Apple driver is indeed under clocking the GPU to maintain temperature in the safe zone.

Yes. That would make more sense to me

It would still nevertheless imply "special" drivers for certain models, since other Macs use AMD graphic chips it would seem - for example 2014 iMacs…

I still think that, to go this route, it would have to have been impossible to do it in firmware.

On this website of notebookcheck.*** it says:

The AMD Radeon HD 6770M (sometimes also called ATI Mobility Radeon HD 6770 or similar) is a fast middle class graphics card for laptops in 2011. It supports DirectX11, is the successor of the HD 5770, and features higher clock rates, 80 more shaders, Eyefinity+ and the new UVD3 video decoder. However, it is still produced in 40nm and based on the same Whistler chip as the entire 6700M and 6600M series. The chip is normally clocked at 725 MHz, but is only clocked at 675 MHz in the MacBook Pro 15 Late 2011 model.

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if you go further to the review of that website it comes back again:

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Apple-MacBook-Pro-15-Late-2011-2-4-GHz-6770M -glare.66918.0.html

Graphics Solution

Besides the faster processor the built-in AMD Radeon HD 6770M graphics card is the second change in the MBP 15. A look at the clock rate disappoints us. In the reference design (and in Windows laptops we know) the clock rate is 725 MHz, but Apple uses a clock rate of 675 MHz. Therefore, it is not much faster than the Radeon 6750M running at 600 MHz in the entry-level model. Contrary to the entry-level model the more powerful model features 1 GB GDDR5 and not only 512 MB. This can definitely be advantageous in multi monitor configurations under Mac OS X. Since the introduction of the Thunderbolt interfaces, graphics solutions are only connected via PCIe 8x by the way. At the time of writing, this is only disadvantageous in few applications.

The MacBook Pro includes an automatic switching between processor graphics (Intel HD Graphics 3000) and the 6770M depending on the software under Mac OS X. The switching is done by Apple's own system without flickering and worked flawless in our test. However, only the power hungry Radeon is used under Windows.

In the synthetic benchmarks the impact of the lower clock rate and the narrow PCIe interface becomes obvious. On average, our test model is about 6% slower than the HD 6770M in the HP DV6. The difference was lowest in the Heaven Benchmark (2%) and in older CPU-oriented 3DMark versions. But our test model is about 10% faster than the 6750M in the MacBook Pro (now built-in in the entry-level model).  Thus it positions itself narrowly in front of the fastest Nvidia GeForce GT 555M graphics cards right on the line to high-end graphics cards.

GPU Performance Mac OS X

We also quickly checked the graphics performance under Mac OS X. In the OpenGL test of Cinebench R11.5 the Radeon HD 6770M was 19% faster than the 6750M in the 17" MBP Early 2011. However, differences in Lion also have an impact here. This gets particularly obvious in Cinebench R10 (the result is lower here).

In practice, games are still slower under Mac OS X than under Windows. Nevertheless, StarCraft 2 was playable at high details and a resolution of 1440x900 (challenge - For The Swarm: 30-50fps). Left 4 Dead 2 achieved 35-45 fps in native resolution with 4x MSAA, 8x AF and maximum details and was playable smoothly as well.

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edit:

note that the chip they talk about in the post above is the optional AMD Radeon HD 6770M with 1 GB GDDR5 memory and normal configuration has the MD Radeon HD 6750M with 512 MB GDDR5 memory. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook_Pro)

For the 6750 there is no speaking about tuning down the clockspeed.

there is this: The more powerful Radeon HD 6750M in place here really stands out compared to the small entry-level 6490M graphics card found in the 2 GHz MacBook Pro (MC721LL/A).  There's a great deal of characteristics that separate the model in review here from the standard model: 480 shaders instead of 160, a 128-bit memory bus instead of 64-bit one and 1GB of GDDR5 RAM as opposed to the 256MB of the starter model.  On top of that, the Core i7-2720QM in place here runs at a  10% higher base clock rate and 14% higher maximum turbo clock rate.  Even the on-board graphics card in this laptop can reach a slightly higher turbo clock rate of 1.3 GHz than the one mounted on the 2 GHz i7-2635M CPU of the standard model.  Finally, the CPU in place here has two more Sandy-Bridge-core features not available in the standard model: VT-d virtualization and AES functions.  Since Mac OS X does not currently support AES, this becomes a moot point. The final distinguishing factor between the two MBP15 versions is the hard drive: In the case of the 2.2 GHz model at hand here, a larger 750 GB HDD takes care of all your storage needs.

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