Q: 2011 MacBook Pro and Discrete Graphics Card

ptam007 wrote:

 

Hi all, looking for some much needed advice.

 

The technician said since my video card did not fail their tests I was not covered underneath the ERP. He offered to rerun the tests one more time to see if anything would change, which I agreed to. He called again later to say that I did not fail the test and again the fee would be $310. I went down to the store and spoke with the technician asking him IF I did fail the tests and IF I did qualify for the ERP, what would be the course of action? His answer: LOGIC BOARD REPLACEMENT

 

I have been trying these last two months since beginning this whole debacle to use my MacBook but the longest I have used it was three hours before it shut down on me. One week I tried every day to turn it on but it would not. This MacBook is not reliable or usuable, it has not been since I gave up on it September 2012. I have spent a total of $314.93 for RAM cards, service charges, and a battery replacement in the last three years for the MacBook. I am not willing to spend another $310 to fix a 4+ year old computer. I have already checked the serial number, it is the right model and my MacBook does have one of the three symptoms they list. I need a logic board replacement yet Apple refuses to repair it.

Is there any more that I can do? Should I just keep bringing it in and run the video tests until it fails? Or am I operating on a loss here. I am extremely frustrated at the amount of money and time I have wasted on a computer I used for a year and a one month.

Like any situation where someone controls what we get, those on the giving end have power and those on the receiving end dance the tune or go without.

Many have said take pictures or videos of the failure because several Apple repair facilities have not been able to duplicate the problem yet recognize the problem from the pictures or video and take that as proof positive of the problem.  There will always be others who make other choices and reject the evidence.  In either case the customer is at the mercy of the repair tech.   Some have mentioned going to a different tech or calling Apple directly and succeeding in getting their machine repaired.  Your mileage may vary.

I had my MBP repaired by a third party in New York City days before the Extended Warranty program was announced and have not experienced another failure.  My cost analysis, at the time, was the repair cost was 50% that of Apple and the reported success rate was higher.  Therefore I regained reliable use of the machine that cost thousands of dollars for a fraction of Apple's bid and gained reliability besides.

The unexpected benefit was when Apple refunded my repair costs.  Happened without dancing to someone else's tune.

Evidently, the fact that your MBP restarts, or turns off, or fails to turn on, is not in itself sufficient to qualify it for the ERP, which is intended to address the video issues described in the announcement, not just any issues that might require the replacement of the logic board.  I cannot recall a report in this discussion of photos showing an MBP experiencing those video issues not being accepted in lieu of the evidence that Apple's tests did not elicit.  There are, of course, other reasons for a machine to unexpectedly restart, turn off, or not turn on than the video issues at which the ERP is aimed.  I must admit that it is hard to understand how the problems you are experiencing could be the by-product of video issues that you have never seen (or did I misunderstand you and you did observe them?).

Perhaps you should focus on the problems you are experiencing and can document, not the ones you wish you could document that would qualify for the ERP.  The problem you have been experiencing since acquiring your MBP are the mysterious restarts, failures to start, shutdowns, etc. Several attempts have been made to repair the problems, and so far none has succeeded.  (Were the repairs performed by Apple Authorized Service Providers (ASP)?)  Now you are experiencing the same problems, and Apple is offering to repair it for a price.  Do you want the machine repaired because you intend to use it, or do you just want it repaired if it costs nothing?  You can rage all you want at the "injustice" of having to pay for something that others get for free under other circumstances, but that will not get the machine repaired for free, I fear.  So you have to decide whether you want that machine to be repaired at all, and, if so, what price you are wiling to pay for the work.  If it's not the price that Apple wants for the work, who will do it for your price? 

By all means try to bargain with Apple, but be unemotional about it.  Present the technician with a lucid and objective summary of what you have experienced since acquiring the MBP.  Ask what will happen if the proposed repairs do not solve the problem, especially in light of the fact that so many attempts have already failed.  Make it plain to him that you are willing to work towards a solution with Apple, but that you need your machine, so your patience does have limits, and after a reasonable number of attempts to repair the machine for the same problem, other solutions (e.g., replacing it) must be sought.  Maybe they will assure you that this is the last attempt.  More likely, though, they will tell you about a ninety-day warranty on parts and labor.  It's up to you whether you decide to accept their offer.

This has nothing to do with kissing somebody's posterior or otherwise dancing to his music.  It has to do with getting what you want within bounds that you played no role in determining.  Some people are predisposed to bend rules in your favor, others are not.  One thing is certain, though:  treating them as if they had made the rules will not encourage them to bend them.

Manthou Khorn wrote:

IF I were apple, I will ask AMD to make new GPU that cooler and stronger than the old and replace for free.

If I were Apple, I would seriously reconsider the thermal design and produtction process.

jimoase wrote:

 

Those that did reflows of the solder joint reported success and regained useful operation.  Those who had Apple replace their motherboards had problems similar to the original problem, some failed in a short period of use while others worked for months.  The Apple replacement motherboards were likely from the same production period as those used in the original MBPs sold to the public.  Logically they would have the same faults and that appears to be true from reports made during this discussion.

 

Bottom line... Functionally, no one has reported a failing GPU chip.  Many have reported a failing GPU in an Apple assembly.  Other manufacures use this chip and from my research have not experienced a similar spike in failed operation.

 

I think this is an Apple manufacturing process problem.  If anyone has information to the contrary please share it.

Agree jimoase.

Some honderd pages (over 500-600?) back I tried to explain what caused the problem.

Was educated guesses based on previous experiences with this kind of repairs.

On all the macbook pro's 2011 I fixed I only replaced a few with new chips as customers insisted on it.

The other ones I mostly reflowed (preferred), or reballed if customer insisted.

First ones I repaired about 20 months ago (november 2011), still running fine.

Without replacing chips, still using the so called "bad" ones.

Tells me my "educated guess" was spot on and it was not the chip giving problems but a bad solder production process and bad thermal design.

As long as Apple cramps their systems in such small cases with an insufficient thermal design, it's asking for problems

Wouldn't be sruprised if even the newer models might start failing with the same problems later too.

Hope for all of you I'm wrong on this.

Those that did reflows of the solder joint reported success and regained useful operation.  Those who had Apple replace their motherboards had problems similar to the original problem, some failed in a short period of use while others worked for months.

Correction:  Of those who did reflows of the solder joint and reported the outcome in this discussion, at least one person reported that the job was botched and his MBP even refused to start thereafter.  I am not going to look for the page on which this was reported, but anyone who is skeptical should feel free to do so.  So, we just do not know how many of those who had a reflow done found that it did not fix the problem, but evidently such people exist.

About the success rates of those who had Apple replace their motherboards:  Again, this is based on discussions in this and other forums.  We just have no data on how many of the units sold were afflicted by the GPU problem (i.e., the soldering of it to the motherboard).  Likewise, we have no data on how many of those underwent multiple (unsuccessful) repairs for the video issues.  I can't imagine that Apple would persist in replacing the faulty boards with boards of the exact same design if machines repaired in this way always ended up suffering a relapse.  It may or may not be extremely unenlightened on Apple's part and/or counterproductive not to release those statistics, but Apple isn't stupid.  Tim & Crew could do worse than to review the lessons learned by how Steve dealt with Antennagate.

Richard Liu wrote:

 

Those that did reflows of the solder joint reported success and regained useful operation.  Those who had Apple replace their motherboards had problems similar to the original problem, some failed in a short period of use while others worked for months.

Correction:  Of those who did reflows of the solder joint and reported the outcome in this discussion, at least one person reported that the job was botched and his MBP even refused to start thereafter.  I am not going to look for the page on which this was reported, but anyone who is skeptical should feel free to do so.

 

About the success rates of those who had Apple replace their motherboards:  Again, this is based on discussions in this and other forums.  We just have no data on how many of the units sold were afflicted by the GPU problem (i.e., the soldering of it to the motherboard).  Likewise, we have no data on how many of those underwent multiple (unsuccessful) repairs for the video issues.  I can't imagine that Apple would persist in replacing the faulty boards with boards of the exact same design if machines repaired in this way always ended up suffering a relapse.  It may or may not be extremely unenlightened on Apple's part and/or counterproductive not to release those statistics, but Apple isn't stupid.  Tim & Crew could do worse than to review the lessons learned by how Steve dealt with Antennagate.

We both agree there are only the reports of those who took the time to share them with this discussion.

We know from those reports that Apple was unable to fix several machines and replaced the entire machine as a cost effective way to solve the customer's needs.  We know from the time line of reports that Apple was swapping motherboards within days of the Extened Warranty anouncement.  We know of some reports of multiple failures from machines repaired during the Extended Warranty program.

Logically it would take at least a week to flush the repair inventory system of old motherboards and replenish the same system with new motherboards.  Repairs were made and paid for days before the anouncement.  We know at least one of those last minute repairs failed again.

We know if new motherboards were to be implemented into the repair system they would need to be produced, either by a ECO (Engineering Change Order) on motherboards in the system or by a new production run.  Its unlikely that Apple would pay the expensive of producing a limited number of blanks boards and produce entirely new boards.  That leaves installing an ECO by reworking existing boards. Such a change would result in a new Part Number P/N or the same P?N with Revision number change.  None have been reported.

We know Apple's initial reaction to this problem in 2011 was reduce the number of heat cycles.  Which had the effect of delaying the failure into 2013...15.  Then when the failures spiked again Apple tried to stonewall until several class actions law suits and public clamor created significant pressure.  Apple then offered the Extended Warranty program.  If they used the surplus motherboards produced in 2011 for the Extended Warranty program repairs there will be a spike in failures in 2017...19, three to fours years later as happened with the original production.  Of course some users have non typical use patterns and they experienced early failures.  Those same use patterns are probably the repeat offenders who have reported multiple failures.  The really harsh users were given new machines because they caused failures in short order.

As to why Apple would not immediately fix the problem when they knew early on it was fractured solder joints caused by heat cycles, they estimated costs and made a cost effective choice.  This 2011 problem is probably at the end of its practical life.   In a few months our 2011 machines will be 5 years old and obsolete by at least two production levels.

I think it is time to address your assumption of needing to "flush" the motherboards that were being used prior to the ERP.  Apple Stores and Apple ASP do not have stocks of spare parts.  I was told this by an Apple dealer here in Basel (Ingeno) when I needed to have an Apple LED Cinema Display 24" repaired a few years ago.  A part has to be ordered, and Apple expects to have either it or the replaced part returned within a few days of shipping.  This is why the dealer refused my proposal to keep the display until the part arrived, at which time he could notify me and I would bring it in.  When he had done this in the past many customers just could not bring the device in before he had to send the part back.  He was not allowed to use that part to make another repair if it just so happened that, before returning the one he ordered for me, another machine needed the same part.

This means that there are probably only a few distribution centers world wide and they can be tightly controlled.  In preparation for the ERP I see no problem with instructing them to send their stock of boards back to, say, a factory on a certain date and sending them the revised boards a few days later, both dates comfortably in advance of the start of the ERP.  Yes, in the meantime the distribution centers will have no boards to send to Apple Stores and Apple ASPs who order them, but given careful preparation of the program that delay can be minimized.

We might also have to take leave of the notion that the revised boards need to have markings on them that enable us to identify them as such.  In order for their technicians to distinguish them before installation Apple could do something as mundane as package them differently, or paste a sticker on the packaging.  Once the repair had been completed and registered in Apple's systems, it would become just another datum in the history of the customer's machine:  brought to Apple Store such-and-such on such-and-such a date, diagnosis, proposed solution, customer's consent, what parts were ordered and installed when, results of post repair tests, etc.  This information would suffice to determine the origin of the motherboard whenever Apple technicians needed to.  I am not saying that this is the way it is.  We just do not know.

We just do not know.  To my knowledge, neither of us is privy to internal Apple information.  We are basing our understanding of what is and is not happening on our experience.  My experience is not in consumer electronics, nor in any other kind of electronics, but in the pharmaceuticals industry.  People can die if old stock is not "flushed" from the distribution channels expeditiously, and by this I mean not just physical stock, but intellectual as well, as health care professionals may have to be advised on additional precautions to take before prescribing a drug.  And yes, in the pharma industry there is an equivalent to "revising" that does not require a drug to be reapproved.  In some cultures cosmetic variations in the appearance of a pill (e.g., black specks on a pink pill) suffice for patients to refuse to take them, even though such cosmetic imperfections are meaningless.  Companies will go to great lengths to find the cause of such cosmetic imperfections and revise their manufacturing processes accordingly, even if only a small percentage of the yield is affected.  Neither doctors nor patients will be able to determine the provenance of a particular sample of the drug thereafter, even though the manufacturer certainly can.  In some cases, there may be identifying markings on the packaging, while in others a chemical analysis might be required.  In rare cases, tighter quality control is the only answer.

As I have the feeling we (two) are moving the discussion off-topic, I will not be monitoring this thread for a few days.

Richard Liu wrote:

 

I think it is time to address your assumption of needing to "flush" the motherboards that were being used prior to the ERP.  Apple Stores and Apple ASP do not have stocks of spare parts.  I was told this by an Apple dealer here in Basel (Ingeno) when I needed to have an Apple LED Cinema Display 24" repaired a few years ago.  A part has to be ordered, and Apple expects to have either it or the replaced part returned within a few days of shipping.

..........  We just do not know.

 

We just do not know.  To my knowledge, neither of us is privy to internal Apple information.  We are basing our understanding of what is and is not happening on our experience.  My experience is not in consumer electronics, nor in any other kind of electronics, but in the pharmaceuticals industry.  People can die if old stock is not "flushed" from the distribution channels expeditiously, ...........

We do know there is a distribution system complete with strategically placed parts depots and repair centers.  We do know that packaged parts are identified by the labels on the package... i.e. printed and or bar coded.  We know there are scams when parts cannot be specifically identified.

I have decades of design, testing and manufacturing experience in the electronic industry.  Every company follows the same process for tracking parts of varies revision levels, they change the part number in someway.  Complete part number change or revision level change.  The part is permanantly marked so repair centers can't short cycle assemblies, in this case send old boards back as newer boards and get warranty charges instead of repair charges.  The ideas is to get free assemblies by exchanging old assemblies as failed new assemblies then charge the manufactures for warranty time and the customer for repair time.  Use to happen a lot.  That is why each assembly (motherboard in this case) is marked with its current revision level which often identifies the center installing the ECO and date.

Old suspect motherboards must be removed from the system so they can be upgraded and returned as motherboards to be used for Extended Warranty assemblies because on a recall there are more boards needed than spares in the system.  There is no way to instantly do that process.  Just the logistics of moving those boards to a repair center and back to the depots takes time.  Then add in the ordering materials needed for doing the board upgrades, installation time and quality check time.  At a glance all the boards/assemblies look a like and can be easily  confused.  That is why the part or revision number is added to the part/assembly and then to the packaging.

Do we know specifically what Apple's process is, maybe not.  I have had stuff built in the same facilities as Apple stuff.  In those facilities the process is similar for all customers.  Some of the paper work is slightly different and maybe a process step is added or removed, generally in quality assurance.

So the idea of flushing the supply system and marking the assemblies is universal.  By my experience its been that way since the early 1960s.  Do repair centers keep spares on hand for quick turn around?  Depends on the volume of repairs handled by that center, just like getting parts from your local car parts dealer.  They keep high volume stuff on hand and order the rest.  You know you have the right part by looking at the part number.

Hello everyone first time commenting on thread. I represent Mac Wizard Service in Miami.  For a very long time we offered this repair service for our customer but since the recall we were referring customers to apple if we deem that the machines could qualify, for the extended recall repair. We had a customer that came in with Macbook Pro 15" 2011 with the failed gpu. Long story short we did a favor for our customer and took the macbook pro in so the customer would not get the run around about the warranty. The genius ran test and gpu failed. It was sent in for repair and today we get a call that they were declining the repair. Reason, macbook pro didn't have the original hard drive, battery had been replaced and also they claimed the logic board was not the original that came with the macbook pro. Honestly this is the most ridiculous excuse i've ever heard to decline a clearly defective logicboard. Obviously people that had this issue from 2011 more than likely attempted a repair, change battery and or replaced the original hard drive cause those are parts that don't last for over 2 3 years. If the issue was that the logicboard was not the original board and they claimed it was replaced by an un authorised service center this is just crazy ridiculous.

Im going to make it very clear to everyone reading this. I cant count the people that have flooded our repair center and we have had to help them with this problem when Apple refused over and over to help customers. They basically had people running around wasting their time while everyone knew of this issue. This is not only affecting Macbook Pro 15 2011, They have had this issues going on Forever, again Forever, YES. Macbook Pro 15 2007, 2008, old silver ones, iMac 2008, 2009 I mean the list goes on and on and guess what Apple, We have in our system ALL serial numbers from ALL machines that have failed from GPU problems and I've just had it.

Today I get this rude person calling us from Texas trying to tell me a story that doesn't pass the SMELL test. Let me be very clear Apple has shifted from GREAT service to SALES. There are clearly having issues with gpu just like HP DV6000 and DV2000 and XBOX 360 and on and on. So to be fair to Apple these laptops and or iMac's are not built to withstand the heat that some of these machines receive either via Final Cut Pro or any software that demand's high GPU processing, but the fail rate is so massive that even normal people using it for daily use had failures.

Suggestion to Apple:

REPLACE PEOPLE'S LOGICBOARDS, No Questions Asked, end of story.... If you go Broke doing it THEN, GO BROKE, you know why because your sitting on tons of cash that customers have given you entrusting your company is giving them a great product, free of manufacturing defects.

Now do we see these issues on MB 13" as we have seen with MB 15" the answer is NO! no we have not seen failure rates similar or even close to what the 15" have had.

Customers are always First!

Replace these Logic boards and give customers 1 year warranty. That is the right thing to do for your very very Loyal Customers.

macwizardservice wrote:

 

REPLACE PEOPLE'S LOGICBOARDS, No Questions Asked, end of story.... If you go Broke doing it THEN, GO BROKE, you know why because your sitting on tons of cash that customers have given you entrusting your company is giving them a great product, free of manufacturing defects.

Apple doesn't care, they are a shareholders company now, and they no longer care about customers. They took their customers' money, and do not intend to give it back. Personally, I have added up the money I have wasted with Apple, and I will confront the first Apple employee I can get my hands on. No, I probably will not get my money back, but there will be at least one Apple employee that will remember the way Apple handled its customers.

Thanks for the reply.It's my understanding that the majority of GPU failures occurred after about two or three years of use. I used my MacBook for a year and never used graphic heavy programs or did any gaming. Just school work. Who knows if my MacBook would have had the GPU failure if I had continued using it but all I know is my logic board needs to be replaced and I guess I just hoped that my MacBook would be accepted into the ERP.

I wanted to give a final update and summary.

My MBP died in August 2014 and I didn't have it repaired until the program started in February 2015. The first repair was useless. The motherboard was DOA, the machine run excruciatingly slow. I spent a few hours at the Genius Bar trying to figure out why and they eventually said it was because the motherboard I was given was faulty. They replaced it and my machine worked like new again.

Then about 2 months into my 2nd replacement board, I started seeing graphic issues. I started taking pics and vids as evidence. I then went to the Genius Bar a few weeks later to try to get them to diagnose that the 2nd replacement board had the same graphics issue. I showed the Genius the pics and videos and they ran the VST diagnostic. The tech then went in the back for something. Before the diagnostic even finished, the tech came back out and said they're going to give me the option of getting a new motherboard or a new MBP. I obviously chose the new MBP.

I went home to back up my files and came back and exchanged my 2011 with a new 2015 Retina MBP with Touch Force. I didn't ask if it was brand new (I forgot) but Touch Force was only added to MBP's in the latest refresh in May so I'm not too worried about the machine, even if it is refurbished.

It's been a long and annoying process but to everyone still worried about their 2011 MBPs, there's some hope at the end of the tunnel. Hopefully the new MBPs don't have the same issue. But as someone mentioned, Apple solders everything together to help reduce the bulkiness of the machines so the soldering/graphics card problem may be a common thing for all MBPs now. But this new MBP will likely (fingers crossed) last me another 2-3 years, at which point, I'll reassess.

my 2011 MBP started its slow death in July.  By September, I purchased a newer $2k 2013 MBP direct from Apple just to keep motoring on.

In February, Apple announced their new repair program and sent my 2011 MBP in.  A week later I received a call saying it's ready.  I went to the Apple store to pick it up.  It was somebody else's 2011 MBP they'd given me but they swapped my hard drive and RAM into this unit.  This was not good.

But still there was no proof that this other 2011 MBP they gave me had been fixed.

After 3 months of dealing with the wrong Apple person who kept delaying and giving me the runaround I escalated the ticket I created.  Within 24 hours, this other Apple rep said he was going to send me a brand new 2015 2.5Hz, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, and discrete gpu in exchange for my 2011.

That took a few weeks to wrap up.  I received the new 2015 MBP + external super drive and without opening it sold it on Craigslist to compensate me for my 2013 MBP purchase.  

It was a nightmare but eventually Apple did what was reasonable. 

I have an early 2011 MacBook pro with the AMD Radeon HD 6490M. I started having issues January this year (2015) with getting distorted display consisting of vertical black lines and the image not centered. I had the mac plugged to an external monitor.

This would go away, sometimes when unplugging the external monitor (if the macbook pro switched to the integrated intel), and always when restarting. Then after a while this started to happen also when I did not have the monitor connected. (I assume this is because the macbook pro alternates between the discrete AMD card and the integrated intel card depending on graphics needs).

After that, I started getting sporadic blue screens that forced me to restart the computer (I am assuming the discrete card was already dead by this point but the mac would work when running on the integrated intel). Then one day I got the final blue screen and after the usual restart the computer did not get pass booting. After that I never managed to get it to boot into the OS. When it got pass initial boot, it went directly to a white screen and there it stayed. (This could be because the mac boots strait to the discrete card, not sure).

I took it to an Apple store. They fixed it for free and told me they replaced the logic board for a new one that did not have the issue. Everything was going fine until recently that I started getting the distorted symptoms again when connecting the computer to an external display. It has the same Graphics Card as before so I am guessing they probably just replaced the logic board for a new same one. Make sure they do not give you the same logic board and same discrete card you had before or the problems will start to come again.

I talked to a mac specialist and his theory is that the problem is that the 2011 macbook pro runs too hot and the GPU does not have a fan attached to it. He showed me the logic board and indeed the GPU is soldered on the side of the board and has no access to ventilation. This makes the solder crack and the GPU malfunction and eventually die. Reballing will not fix it, he has reballed a couple and the problem comes again after a while. And this makes sense because eventually the discrete card will run hot again (because of lack of ventilation) and break. The real problem is in the poor design of the logic board on the 2011 models. I cannot say for sure this is the complete cause of the problem, but I've seen his reballed macs fix the problem for a little while and then fail again. (A mix of poor solder material, and discrete card quality might also affect the outcome here)

I also heard that all Apple does is if the components still work, they reball your gpu and install the motherboard back. This might not be the case in general, but I particularly am having the problems again after the free fix, so I am guessing they put back the same logic board reballed, or replaced the old one for a new one of the same model.

Right now I am out of the US so its hard for me to get it to an Apple Store. But when I'm back I'll take it and see what they say.

Where did you also hear that?

Post a link to it please.

I do not remember exactly, but when I was searching to see how to fix the issue back in January I stumbled into a couple forums and a youtube video if I remember correctly saying that they suspected that this was why people where still having problems after the Apple fix (which was not free back then). As I said, it might not be the case in general, but I suspect it is what happen in my case and maybe others because I took it over to Apple for the now free fix they offered and I am starting to see the symptoms again.