Q: 2011 MacBook Pro and Discrete Graphics Card

I want to tell you my experience,. this might help others, I have a Macbook pro 17 inch and till a couple of days ago the screen would not turn on, neither I could display anything through a secondary monitor, so my guess was that the video card was broken, so after a lot of a though I followed the tutorial to oven cook the mother board, and as a matter of fact for my surprise it kind of worked, the downsize was that all white colored surfaces would apear with blinking pink dots and this was driving me crazy, so I re cooked the board, but this tie the screen would not turn on again, so I cooked and recooked the board about 5 times without results, until I though on pluging the laptop to another monitor, and to my surprise the fact was that the lcd screen was just no starting, however I could see the apple on the secondarey monitor, but The machine would just not start. Long story short, I happen to be able to boot the compyter and the graphics are now perfect, but somehow during the process something got messed that the lcd screen will not work anymore, and also the fan are now like F1 cars running and speeding like crazy, so I'm still trying to find solutions, but I trully think I should have waited before recooking the board a second time. Any ideas on how to solve this would be really appreciated. cheers

Highly possible.

However both faults (internal or external) will result in the same outcome of GPU not working anymore.

In any case, its a material problem and not a consumer fault. Something that a responsible company should look at rectifiying.

Maybe you have burned something... and probably now you will need to replace whole logic board(instead of replacing just defective video chip on it).

Logic board is quite complex:

There is multiple layers in board itself - so it can broke just because of bad temperature profile. Other problem is that in oven you can unsolder something... or burn something sensetive. So to properly replace or resolder something on logic board - you will need professional equipment like BGA rework station.

So, my recommendation is - never "cook" your logic board again...

Also even if such "cooking" helps - probably it is just a temporary fix(the same as with reballing, I have written about this above), and problem occure again soon.

To definitely solve such problem(of course if you do not "cooked" it before) you need to replace defective video chip - many service centers are doing this, and it is much cheaper than logic board replacement as apple suggests.

repair of the chip was about 350 GBP so I figured It was not worth for a fix on one part of a 3 yo computer, for that reason I believe I would do it again, and I learned a lot, although maybe next time I would use a heat gun and a good laser thermometer to be more acurate and less damaging on other parts of the logic board, still, I am on the search for a software that would allow me to see if there is anything obvious that is not working, for now, the hardware test from apple is not loading and there is no way of doing this from the OS to my understanding. The truth is I am a PC user and in moments like this is when I remember why I do not like macs.

Price 350 GBP - is at least strange...

For me, in Kiev, it was near $250 for a new chip and work, plus they offer 3 month warranty for such repair. As I know price for new chip is near $50 - so, probably I have overpaid for a work, but it was urgent for me - so I have not searched for other options.

Of course heat gun is better than oven... But it is also dangerous for board.

Laser thermometer - is completely useless in this case, in most cases much cheaper simple thermal pair is enough(often it is in complect with multimeters). But primary danger for logic board is not overheating - it is contrasts when heating, and unproper thermal profile, that can lead to mechanical defects.

About PC vs Mac - they are almost the same, the only differences is - software and better manufacturing quality for macs. Also I like their design in general(aluminium case, glass, magsafe, keyboard, trackpad, and so on - I realy like this). Everything else are the same: hardware components and computer architerture in general. More over - with some hacks, you can run OSX on PC.

About software that you are looking for - iStat menus and smcFanControl can be helpful. But the problem probably is on hardware level - it is either broken sensor or bad contact with cooling system(maybe you need to replace thermal paste)

Bachko wrote:

 

Long story short, I happen to be able to boot the compyter and the graphics are now perfect, but somehow during the process something got messed that the lcd screen will not work anymore, and also the fan are now like F1 cars running and speeding like crazy, so I'm still trying to find solutions, but I trully think I should have waited before recooking the board a second time. Any ideas on how to solve this would be really appreciated. cheers

Is the internal display registering under System Information?  Or in Displays Preferences?

Any chance that you damaged an internal cable or connector?

Fans.  You did redo the thermal compound, right?

miro_r,

as you suggested, I've installed older version of GFX 2.2.1.

But when I try to switch to integrated (anв the tick is near Integrated), it still shows that I use AMD Radeon HD 6750M

Which I think is not true. Do you think it's possible to REALLY switch it to Integrated somehow? When I was on TRUE integrated, it didn't show me glitches like re-rendering with lines in Safari and Finder...

Thanx!

Totally agree with z_bodya.

You shouldn't have cooked ghe board yourself.

I know, those youtube vids all look interesting and easy.

But if you are not familiar with the techniques/processes involved...

I got some in that people tried to fix with a heat gun.

If you wen to hot, lifting the chip might result in lots of pads coming off the pcb = dead motherboard.

Many repair shops won't take it in anymore after they've been threatened like this.

Or after seeing it when opened.

Best advise:

Never ever do any homefixes if not familiar with the processes involved.

I'm using a bga rework station. Started out with game consoles.

Destroyed a few at start before getting the process right.

Then I bought a better machine, with almost immediate success as I understood the process.

If that better machine would've been the first, would just as wel destroy some stuff first before getting it right.

Bachko wrote:

 

although maybe next time I would use a heat gun and a good laser thermometer to be more acurate and less damaging on other parts of the logic board

Another bad way to fix them.

A lot of "heatgunned" consoles, laptops etc appear to be unfixable after a failed heatgun threatment.

Might work, might fail. If it works and fails again later, might be you also affected glues holding solderpads, internal layers etc...

Like I wrote before, fails again, bring it to a repair shop, they refuse of take it in, try, rip pads... mobo waisted.

And ripping the pads is not the fault of the repair shop but the raping of the board by the heatgun.

IR thermometer isn't the best to measure this either.

Sorry, but imo, these repairs should be done with the right equipment for the job using the correct workflow.

z_bodya wrote:

 

As I know: re-ball is just temporary solution, and depends on your luck.

It is because there is two sets of solder balls.. - between chip and board and much smaller balls inside of the chip. And in most cases - problem is in small balls inside.

http://www.springerimages.com/Images/RSS/1-10.1007_s10854-006-9031-5-0

So, in most cases, when reballing helps it is not because you are replacing broken solder balls, but because of heating some joints inside chip are fixed.

Partly correct.

What you describe applies to POP packages only, Package on Package.

Which is a die soldered to a larger substrate using solder balls.

It is in fact a small bga on a larger bga.

Others are internally connected with bond wires, nothing much you can fix on that with a reflow.

About lead solder - they are used for reballing not because they are better(lead free solder is even stronger) but because they have much lower melting point, so it is much safer for chip and easier to operate when doing re-ball.

Agree.

When we started this, 2005-2006, was fairly early stage of lead free production.

Alloys where different, more sensitive for mentioned problems than the new alloys used or coming up now.

Those days, it was better to use lead solder balls probably.

With the new alloys, maybe they are better for reballing.

But.... also very expensive and harder to get.

You are correct on the lower temps using leaded solder balls.

It does give lesser stress and will probably be used for a long time to come.

z_bodya wrote:

 

So, my recommendation is - never "cook" your logic board again...

 

Really agree with this.  I've said it before, but feel the need to mention it whenever it comes up.  These machines are still worth good money.  You can check those recently sold on eBay to see what people are still paying for them.  15 inch models.  17 inch models.  Honestly, I think people are paying way too much considering what you can get new from Apple, but that's what folks are paying, so that's what they're worth.  Even with full disclosure about the problem, you can easily get $500 for it pretty quickly (folks who can fix them will buy them to turn around). 

I don't mean to appear hostile to those who have done it.  Of course, it's your machine and you can do whatever you want.  But PLEASE think twice about implying that you have fixed it just because you're able to boot it after you pull it out of your oven.  It's not going to last and you may have made it more difficult to perform a legitimate repair in the future.  You have also lowered the resale value unless you're dishonest and choose not to mention that when you sell it.

IMHO, the most practical options here:

1)  Have it fixed by a competent professional with high-end equipment.

2)  Sell it as is (unmolested) and put that money toward another computer.

D3us wrote:

 

A lot of "heatgunned" consoles, laptops etc appear to be unfixable after a failed heatgun threatment.

Might work, might fail. If it works and fails again later, might be you also affected glues holding solderpads, internal layers etc...

Like I wrote before, fails again, bring it to a repair shop, they refuse of take it in, try, rip pads... mobo waisted.

And ripping the pads is not the fault of the repair shop but the raping of the board by the heatgun.

 

IR thermometer isn't the best to measure this either.

 

Sorry, but imo, these repairs should be done with the right equipment for the job using the correct workflow.

Aye.  Thanks for that too.  This sort of thing might make sense for a seven year old X-Box with a resale value of $60 when you're just looking to get a few more weeks out of it until X-Mas.  IMHO, it's a really unwise choice here both practically and economically.

D3us wrote:

 

...With the new alloys, maybe they are better for reballing.

But.... also very expensive and harder to get.

 

You are correct on the lower temps using leaded solder balls.

It does give lesser stress and will probably be used for a long time to come.

I wonder if the occasional problems that still do occur have less to do with the alloys and more to do with the non-metallic elements added to enhance certain qualities (maybe sometimes at the expense of other qualities?).  Phosphorus, for example, is often added in very small amounts to reduce oxidation.  But some recent studies suggest that certain amounts of phosphorus may also cause joints to become more brittle and less able to endure thermal cycling. 

Swampus wrote:

D3us wrote:

 

...With the new alloys, maybe they are better for reballing.

But.... also very expensive and harder to get.

 

You are correct on the lower temps using leaded solder balls.

It does give lesser stress and will probably be used for a long time to come.

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I wonder if the occasional problems that still do occur have less to do with the alloys and more to do with the non-metallic elements added to enhance certain qualities (maybe sometimes at the expense of other qualities?).  Phosphorus, for example, is often added in very small amounts to reduce oxidation.  But some recent studies suggest that certain amounts of phosphorus may also cause joints to become more brittle and less able to endure thermal cycling.

Could be.

Think the change in alloys is more to replace the silver, and maybe copper, which is getting more/to expensive.

One of the things also used more, and to lower solder temps, are indium and bismuth, of which bismuth is the cheapest, and will probably be used more.

It also lowers metling temp, even lower as the old Sn63.

A disadvantage of Bi however is it is more brittle.

Maybe there the phosphorus comes in?

All the problems macbook pro users in this thread experience, imo it's a production soldering process not giving a 100% yield on the bga reflow letting it fail over time.

If I could a get a few bad mobos, 5-10 at once, I could get them x-rayed to get an idea what is the most common problem probably.

Should some be interested... Live in Belgium...

Swampus, maybe we should start a more "technical"  thread about the subject... ;-).

I was wondering these days whether the issue could be traced down to a specific solder-point beneath the GPU or something. This seems on the one hand quite unrealistic (given there are at least around 50 of them) but on the other it's also kind of strange that we're all experiencing the same kind of errors - even the same kind of graphical glitches (with the blue vertical lined screen being the final stage) - which I suppose wouldnt neccessarily appear if a different soldering point was affected (maybe resulting in a different error, e.g. "just" a kernel panic)..