Q: 2011 MacBook Pro and Discrete Graphics Card

ps3specialist wrote:

 

That is a wrong conclusion also, all peripherals including hard drive, DVD drive, sata ports, usb ports ...etc. are controlled by the Southbridge chip and when there is a malfunction in one or more of them then the Southbridge chip  has to be reballed, there is nothing called bad patch of chips.

I have to disagree, the early 2011 had a brand new Sandy Bridge Intel chipset which had a glitch in the first batches from new hence why Apple downgraded the SATA speed from 3 to 2 in the EFI.  Six months later, new Intel chips SATA 3.  Plenty of links out there about it but I better go out, I have Macs to fix for a living you all behave

Thanks for avdvice my laptop just reballed so I will wait warranty and open it.

@Csound1 I did star the last 4 digits but I'm wondering how to estimate a range of failure of we can't safely share the serial number Thanks for the reply

ps3specialist wrote:

 

We don't disagree on the material because at the end the material is just one factor in the success of the process but the more important thing for me is that I do this process at least ten times a day everyday so using leaded solder means that I will die with cancer and I am not willing to end my life that way.

It is one factor - myself I prefer Pb for mind due to the properties of the material and the lower temperature on the PCB surface reballing it.  I completely understand why you don't use lead too doing it ten times a day, I send mine away!

We're all on the same side and a highly competant reball from an expert no matter what material is a better long term than the dreadful state of the so called depot 'refurb' boards.

The choice is yours, it is generally advised not to post personal information on a public site. I don't see much danger from your serial no (unless your Mac is still under warranty) but .....

You may find that it is removed anyway.

GavMackem wrote:

 

D3us wrote:

 

One of the reasons I will never buy an Apple computer or whatever.

Been using computers over 30 years now.

Only one having issues with "non standard" is apple.

Plenty of Apple's out there working fine for a very long time.  Generally across the range it's mostly heat and fan blockages that break them.

 

This particular model though does have a problem which Apple won't even partially admit to which is why I keep posting. I'd be gone forever if they offered the equivalent of iTunes store credit as a rebate for a users fresh GPU competently fitted and the thermal system optimised properly!

Edited that post a bit.

Didn't mean Apple is the only one having those issues, happens to PC manufacturers too.

What I ment more was Apple doesn't like you to change anything on the system.

Where PC manufacturers update bios or drivers more to make their systems more compatible with e.g. memory, graphic cards or other enhancements when reported them not working.

Also, Apple does make good stuff and know how to design. Just prefer to have more choices and buil a computer to my likes.

Furthest I will probably go is a hackintosh.

ps3specialist wrote:

 

the first picture show the area of the logic board under the graphics chip that show clearly the reason for the graphics failure  the second picture show the same logic board after removing the solder, clean the dirt and refresh all the soldering pads , only the blinds don't see the reality and understand that it is not a design or manufacturing issue or a defective graphics chip,

 

 

The photo's you posted in above comment don't really prove anything.

You used flux and heated it up above liquid so the balls were soldered again.

Photo should be taken before any maniuplation.

Only (3D) rontgen will show probably.

You also wrote:

" not a design or manufacturing issue "

Before you wrote:

ps3specialist wrote:

 

The dust that you see is very fine dust granules , they don't just stay around the chips and they don't just go under the chips, you won't beleive me if I say they go under the solder, when I clean the solder from the motherboard after removing the graphics chip I usually find a brown layer of that dust that got under the solder all the way to the soldering pads and that what causes the bad connection and that is why reflow usually doesn't work because that layer of the very fine dust will stay under the solder as it is and that what makes reballing necessary to really fix the bad connection on the graphics chip side, sometimes I feel like the CPU should be also removed and reballed and I am getting ready to start doing that specially in cases like the one I show pictures for.

If it was not a manufactruring fault it should be soldered correctly?

Think we can agree a "correct" solder joint has an intermetallic bond leaving no space to get anything under it? Even dust granius?

Still sitck with my previous thoughts on this: bad soldering process/profile..

D3us wrote:

 

Imo, the problem is the lead free solder. Or at least the used soldering process/profile.

Lead free solder doesn't wet (solder) as well as lead solder, needs higher preheat and soldering temps.

This temp has to be reached a specific soldering profile.

Higher temps = more chance for oxidation = more chance for errors, which can arise later, etc...

 

That AMD GPU has over 900 solder balls on it.

Much chance for some going wrong.

 

Still stand by what I wrote before:

 

It's probably not an internal GPU fault.

The reason is bad soldering of the BGA most likely.

Not all balls got fully liquidus or long enough TAL, not giving a 100% soldered connection.

It makes contact but is not really soldered, doesn't have a real intermetallic bond.

More "glued" instead of soldered.

Same bad soldering process can also result in "brittle" solder.

The mechanical stress caused by heating/cooling cycles, making it expand and shrink, breaks the "glued" or brittle connections.

 

Other possibilties are "head in pillow", can break later due mecanical stress too.

Tin wiskers, as mentioned, but less likely in this case.

And others...

D3us wrote:

 

GavMackem wrote:

 

D3us wrote:

 

One of the reasons I will never buy an Apple computer or whatever.

Been using computers over 30 years now.

Only one having issues with "non standard" is apple.

Plenty of Apple's out there working fine for a very long time.  Generally across the range it's mostly heat and fan blockages that break them.

 

This particular model though does have a problem which Apple won't even partially admit to which is why I keep posting. I'd be gone forever if they offered the equivalent of iTunes store credit as a rebate for a users fresh GPU competently fitted and the thermal system optimised properly!

Edited that post a bit.

Didn't mean Apple is the only one having those issues, happens to PC manufacturers too.

What I ment more was Apple doesn't like you to change anything on the system.

Where PC manufacturers update bios or drivers more to make their systems more compatible with e.g. memory, graphic cards or other enhancements when reported them not working.

 

Also, Apple does make good stuff and know how to design. Just prefer to have more choices and buil a computer to my likes.

Furthest I will probably go is a hackintosh.

As far as other flaws compared to other manufacturers Apple have been great. Take nvidiagate - despite nvidia ultimately footing the bill the repair program was superb, first class. Compare that to HP with the G series models and the same 8 series GPU. Thanks to the class action in the states they offered a repair program over there but left the rest of the world to rot, a disgrace.

The newer models such as the retina are pretty much non upgradable, much harder to take apart but with a vastly improved cooling system compared to the common 2008-2012 chassis with optical drive.

I love my 17 and this being the last of its kind, for size and upgrade-ability for the foreseeable future I want to keep it for a long time.  I've maxed out with 16Gb ram and 1TB ssd and its not that much more slower than the newer models.  With the thermal system optimised how I and not Apple see it and the CPU/GPU properly soldered I am confident they will last the 6-8 years I expect them to. I'm that confident that when it eventually comes to reball the GPU I will send bga-repairs an i7-2860QM CPU I have bought to reball also, which is the BTO upgrade chip with higher clock, cache and turbo boost. I'm also on the hunt for a replacement matte LCD as I don't like glossy a lot and the screen has started to develop two white marks.

Similarly I am a great fan of the classic Mac Pro, if you want to make your own mods they are superb machines. My workhorse Mac Pro 3,1 2008 octo 3.2 with 32Gb ram, EFI flashed GTX 680, SATA3 PCIe, USB 3.0 is still working brilliantly in OSX and bootcamp, and will eventually be replaced by a 5,1 dual hex CPU tower retrofitting all my upgrades inside.  It still flies, thanks to the GPU and huge ram it still beats a retina 15 in photoshop batches. If you want to fiddle with a macintosh it's by far the best Mac.

I have built hacks, I hate maintaining them though they are a right pain with OSX upgrades etc.  That was until I built 2 hacks with the Quo ivy bridge mainboard which is by far the most maintenance free hack there is.  Not enough card slots or power for me, but if they release a Haswell EP Xeon version (the next gen Mac Pro black can will have this chipset) with lots of slots and thunderbolt I will be very very tempted, though I think I would look into retrofitting that mainboard into a classic Mac Pro chassis. No doubt I will join in with the project over on macrumors!

Allways found the "My mac is better then yours" discussions pointless. (Although my post might have given that impression, but it's not really).

Grew up with homecomputers, 8 and 16 bit, upgrading, modding, reparing, making peripherals for them.

Designed my first PCBs using computer software on Atari ST and Amiga, but those were only simple PCB drawing packages.

Then wanted more of an "electronics design" software including schematics and pcb design from schematic netlist.

Most interesting for me back then were Layo PCB and ULtiCap/UltiBoard, only available on pc.

One of the reasons I choose and stick with PC. Have to admit, until OS/2 and later win2000 didn't like any of the previous OSses.

Most important is we have a system we can do the things we need it for.

And enjoy or have fun with them.

If  you start that mod, don't forget to post a link to it ;-).

Forgot to add:

Or the "My computer is better then  your Mac" discussions just as pointless.

I couldn't agree more and I knew what you meant.  I am the only IT consultant engineer I know who is dual PC and Mac orientated since 1989, its normally one or the other even to this day, though its got a lot better since they went Intel and in reality a Macintosh is a PC in sexy clothes running freebsd linux with sexy software on top. Intel meant I could get rid of two systems for one and I fill a nice niche lol.

I do a lot of work looking after Mac's post AppleCare, setting up new bootcamp systems for high end kit cos as a Windows PC once you do some minor tweaks they are superb. I have New Mac Pro's out there with 8.1 setup for Adobe CS, Maya, Autocad and next week a 3DSMax setup.  They are the quietest rendering workstation there is regardless of OS.

Back to topic though - if you want a MBP you can mod I would still recommend a used late 2011 - with price factored for getting GPU reballed and more importantly the thermal system properly optimised.  It's just a shame that Apple are ignoring supoprting their users and the fixes and engineering guidelines they use for a MBP with a thermal issue are frankly madding at best or plain stupid at most.

Thermal paste across the board still bad though. An example - the only repaste I have ever done on a Mac which hasn't dropped the idle temps down by a lot was on the Mac Pro 3,1 2008 like mine - that has dual lidless CPU's with the liquid silver stuff and that must have been only 3-4C. Every other one a lot. My late 2011 was almost 20C drop on idle when I bought it used.

Typically about a 10-15C drop that includes the New Mac Pro when I did an 8 core upgrade from a 4 and the new retinas models too, mostly for those that like to game, tinker with GPU clock and want as optimised a TDP as possible.

But what do I know, I act on what I see and find the best solutions in real life use and I want them properly repaired and not come back. It's a shame Apple don't think this way with these 2011's in particular. Cos at the moment not only is leaving the customer fully liable for paying for the repair is wrong they aren't doing what I have discovered - not through flowcharts or rules but though experiment, finding out the best way to permanently fix these Sandy Bridge 15/17 inch 2011's.  I have this image of the ghost of Feynman haunting the ghost of Jobs for me lol

Yeah, been thinking to get one should I see it cheap.

Adn I can reball or reflow it myself, do repair them too remember, saves me on that too.

And/or repaste of course, Prefer MX-2 for that.

For the rest, totally get/agree with you.

D3us wrote:

 

Yeah, been thinking to get one should I see it cheap.

 

Adn I can reball or reflow it myself, do repair them too remember, saves me on that too.

And/or repaste of course, Prefer MX-2 for that.

 

For the rest, totally get/agree with you.

I got mine for an absolute steal on eBay, was badly described and the seller took it off sale before the end so I jumped in the car for a 100 mile round trip to collect. I'd been looking for months

I do everything bar solder work, hands too shaky and now I'm in my 40's long sight has kicked in so I also sub out the iOS devices to others now.

My paste preferences are AS-5 and AS-Ceramique 2. Lots of denatured isopropyl and a nice tub of chrome polish to make those little heatpipe squares that sit on the dies so smooth and flat that the bond is as good as it gets.  Compare that to the factory massive blob of shin-etsu with no examination of the plate surface and if the assembly is twisted with a rule (the screws will not make it totally level if the plates are slightly twisted themselves) At a rough guess I'd say half of them Palm tree pipe assemblies from 2008-2012 need a little twist here and there to be aligned right.  I repaste pretty much every logic board I take out.

I'm having the same issues.

I have an early 2011 15 inch Pro.

My AppleCare is expired and I don't know what to do.

I'm a college student and a graphic designer, so I pretty much need a top notch working notebook to carry with me at all times.

What can should I do?

I do not have the funds to purchase a new notebook.

Has Apple started a recall yet to replace the notebooks with a new one?

I paid too much of my money for a product that does not work properly.

:-(

<Edited By Host>

The photo's you posted in above comment don't really prove anything.

You used flux and heated it up above liquid so the balls were soldered again.

Photo should be taken before any maniuplation

You are always wrong, the pictures are not manipulated on anyway and there is no flux there at all, if there is flux you won't see the dust and the liquid that you see signs of it at the left edge is from the thermal compound cleaner that I have to use to clean the chip before working on it, you just don't want to see the reality and that is you see what nobody else see but you.

What did you use to clean it?  Is there a process to follow online?

I added to the discussion, but nobody answered.  I own an early 2011 15" MBP with the IntelHD3000/AMD1GB dual graphics, Hi-Res Anti-Glare screen, 2.3 i7.

It hasn't failed, yet.  All I've done is replaced the fans because they looked dirty upon casual inspection after replacing the hard drive (1TB 7200) and adding RAM.  Replacing the dirty fans with new fans seemed easier that cleaning.  Thought about replacing the heat sink, but decided to hold off.

Is one particular model/CPU affected more than the others?  Has anyone narrowed down the serial number range?

Is this a heat issue which exposes a design flaw in the cooling process?  Or is it a manufacturing/materiel failure?  Or, is it something in the OS that was an oversight for this hardware?

It seems like a lot of complaints from frustrated folks, but rather than gathering facts in this forum, we're gathering rants.

If you gather enough facts, we'll have pinpointed the area, and give Apple something to work with which might benefit future owners should Apple choose to try the same method on future models.

Mine hasn't failed - yet.  I'd like to know why.

And if it does fail, I'd like to know why - then?