Q: 2011 MacBook Pro and Discrete Graphics Card

Don't think you really read ps3specialist's posts correctly.

Accoring to him the problem is not bad design or manufacturing problem but "very fine dust granules which can even go under the solder"

Still wonder how they can get under the solder if there isn't a problem with the soldering... ???

For what most likely is the reason, will repeat what I wrote on page 490:

D3us wrote:

ps3specialist wrote:

 

the first picture show the area of the logic board under the graphics chip that show clearly the reason for the graphics failure  the second picture show the same logic board after removing the solder, clean the dirt and refresh all the soldering pads , only the blinds don't see the reality and understand that it is not a design or manufacturing issue or a defective graphics chip,

 

The photo's you posted in above comment don't really prove anything.

You used flux and heated it up above liquid so the balls were soldered again.

Photo should be taken before reworking (soldering) it.

Only (3D) rontgen will show probably.

 

You also wrote:

" not a design or manufacturing issue "

 

Before you wrote:

 

ps3specialist wrote:

 

The dust that you see is very fine dust granules , they don't just stay around the chips and they don't just go under the chips, you won't beleive me if I say they go under the solder, when I clean the solder from the motherboard after removing the graphics chip I usually find a brown layer of that dust that got under the solder all the way to the soldering pads and that what causes the bad connection and that is why reflow usually doesn't work because that layer of the very fine dust will stay under the solder as it is and that what makes reballing necessary to really fix the bad connection on the graphics chip side, sometimes I feel like the CPU should be also removed and reballed and I am getting ready to start doing that specially in cases like the one I show pictures for.

 

If it was not a manufactruring fault it should be soldered correctly?

Think we can agree a "correct" solder joint has an intermetallic bond leaving no space to get anything under it? Even dust granius?

 

Still sitck with my previous thoughts on this: bad soldering process/profile..

 

D3us wrote:

 

Imo, the problem is the lead free solder. Or at least the used soldering process/profile.

Lead free solder doesn't wet (solder) as well as lead solder, needs higher preheat and soldering temps.

This temp has to be reached a specific soldering profile.

Higher temps = more chance for oxidation = more chance for errors, which can arise later, etc...

 

That AMD GPU has over 900 solder balls on it.

Much chance for some going wrong.

 

Still stand by what I wrote before:

 

It's probably not an internal GPU fault.

The reason is bad soldering of the BGA most likely.

Not all balls got fully liquidus or long enough TAL, not giving a 100% soldered connection.

It makes contact but is not really soldered, doesn't have a real intermetallic bond.

More "glued" instead of soldered.

Same bad soldering process can also result in "brittle" solder.

The mechanical stress caused by heating/cooling cycles, making it expand and shrink, breaks the "glued" or brittle connections.

 

Other possibilties are "head in pillow", can break later due mecanical stress too.

Tin wiskers, as mentioned, but less likely in this case.

And others...

Just for the record again:

Allthough I don't agree with ps3specialist's explanation for the cause of the problem I do not doubt he does a good job on reballing.

Hes partly right about the dust being a problem though.  Aside from the usual bits of human skin, fibres and inorganic dust there's also dust from the excess thermal paste they slop between the die and the CPU, this stuff dries up to a very fine sticky chalk like powder.  Those tiny little particles stick to the balls and when combined with the usual gunk bond together and help contribute those solder joints breaking down. The more fast heat cold cycles, due to over pasting the more paste dust comes away from them. These 2011's get hot the quickest of all in that chassis when the chips ramp up on full power.

that's another factor to go along with the with dodgy solder batches in 2011 the industry had, and explains why they are repasted properly they dont break down anywhere near as much..

I do agree dust/paste/cooling all influences it, make it happen faster probably.

But I don't agree blaming the dust causing it and saying Apple or manufactuerer is not to blame for it.

A solder joint is pretty sealed, not?

If particles do get under it, the solder must have come loose before they can, hence bad soldering.

If soldering was without problems, the dust would collect. Let it overheat.

Give blue screens, reset, bad graphics or whatever.

But after cleaning/pasting it would probably work again.

For me, stick with my opinion, main cause bad soldering process/profile/solder most likely.

I suggest Apple deploy an exchange policy.

We exchange our broken or crippled 15" and 17" mbp's with Apple employees' working and later model mbp 15" and 17" models.  Starting with Apple's executive management team.

Then we'll see how much work Apple is able to accomplish and we can monitor their progress at the stock exchange.

This would be a wonderful remedy and decision handed down by a judge.

I'm in total agreement with you and the primary causes, but the excess paste dust I reckon is a contributory factor in it happening but not only in this chassis with the prime defective factors they have but in pretty much all the Mac I have to clean out. When I've done isopropyl baths for drink spills or cos they are covered in muck I've seen loads of gunk come out from under the packages with a side to side shake.

if I had a lab and could evaporate the alcohol away I could get it chemically analysed but I would need to be working at Cupertino to do that lol.

jmc53 wrote:

 

Anybody here had successful results with a brand new GPU replacement? Mine got reballed but the screen glitches when I use high performance GPU apps and sometimes browsing.

 

Any input?

I have referred six clients with their 2011 to get reballed here in the uk by an excellent reballing agent. So far not one of them is defective, the longest being 9/10 months. Other re ballers before I used this agent I'd take a guess via memory about 25% have failed within the first month of so but with that previous agent I do not think they actually replaced the GPU with a manufacturing batch date after these problematic ones. I know this new agent uses fresh GPU, takes a lot of care preparing the board, agrees with my preference to use leaded solder, optimises the thermal system properly by polishing the heatpipe plate, and uses a sliver of high quality thermal paste, instead of the huge amount Apple apply in their official guidelines which doesn't help the thermodynamics of these 2011's one bit.

If you have screen artefacts when the GPU is active it will need reballing again I'm afraid.

it's a shame you weren't in the uk ps3specialist because I could get a video microscope shipped to you, would be nice to find out what the particles actually are.

FAO bga-repairs if you are still monitoring this thread - do you see the same particles underneath when you reball your 2011's?

<Edited by Host>

non parlo inglese purtroppo, quindi spero che qualcuno traduca per me... sono un possessore dello stesso vostro computer... quello che non capisco e perché non c'è un azione di tutti contro la apple...

<Edited By Host>

Yes they would be able to tell and it does matter. If you were to get a reball and it fails and Apple set a program for this problem, you will not be able to get a replacement or fix from Apple as your computer has been tampered with.

D3us, you do reball right ? In what country are you at?

I will soon go the reball way and as I can't find any trusty one in France, I will probably go somewhere in Europe.

And one question to anyone who knows, how can we know if the GPU needs to be replaced?

Guess the technician doing the job is the best judge to that but can we measure its state or health somehow?

Sadly I had the same problem and the only solution was to get a company to resolder the discrete card back onto the motherboard (£170) with leaded solder as it holds better with the heat expansions and contractions than the unleaded that apple used and has been a complete charm ever since. This is a very common issue and I hope that Apple does a recall soon as the problem is so wide spread. The company I found was on Ebay

Hope this helps

<Link Edited by Host>

I went to that site almost a year ago and have read this topic all the way through from the very start but thanks anyway.

the link will be removed by moderators soon though!

I know no reputable reballers in France but the one I use is in England and are very good. Search eBay uk for bga-repairs you will find their listing for mbp 2011 AMD GPU there.

edit: someone has just posted an eBay  link to their shop above lol

True, but hope this helped non the less