Previous 1 2 3 Next 42 Replies Latest reply: Mar 19, 2013 4:24 AM by smuuudge Go to original post
  • Grant Bennet-Alder Level 9 Level 9 (52,130 points)

    Modern SSDs have Garbage Collection internally, independent of the OS.

    Yes, they do. And that helps them with consolidation of partial blocks and keeping the largest number of their internal large blocks free. But that is not sufficient when the System Software does not communicate which blocks are "not needed" any more. That communication is exactly TRIM.

  • Grant Bennet-Alder Level 9 Level 9 (52,130 points)

    The ODD connectors are only present in 2006 models. The 2008 revision eliminated installation of the connectors. Per Apple.

    The 2008 model was issued with ATA optical drives. The ODD connectors were still present on that model.

     

    The 2009 model was the first model issued with SATA Optical Drives, so those ports are not available.

     

    Apple does not really document those connectors, but the type of Optical drives used will tell you what is what.

  • The hatter Level 9 Level 9 (60,485 points)

    A nice little guide to using SSD

     

    **GUIDE: Bootable Mac Pro 2009-10 SATA III + eSATA Guide + TRIM **


    http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1486752

  • ssls6 Level 4 Level 4 (2,845 points)

    Some things to keep in mind.

     

    On a mac pro, just about any SSD is limited by the bus.  Two hard drives running in Raid 0 will be just as fast. Make sure what you buy can have the trim enabled via the third party app (I just tested a cheap 240gb HP v300a from bestbuy and it works fine, made by PSY using the latest sandforce controller).

     

    My current setup on a Mac Pro 5.1

     

    240gb SSD for boot and applications (speed ~275 MB/s)

    2x1TB drives in raid 0 for my data (speed ~250 MB/s)

    1x2TB drive internal clone for data (speed ~140 MB/s)

    2x2TB FW800 backup drives

     

    The new iMac or Mini have a fast bus than my Mac Pro.  I've seen people hit close to 500 MB/s on youtube. 

  • BitterCreek Level 1 Level 1 (100 points)

    <Edited By Host>

     

    The correct reply I made was thus:

     

    Discussions can be more productive if we all try to be more diplomatic.

     

    Grant, there is no discussion to fact. All I can do is help you figure out were you need to learn more.

     

    Most operating Systems, Mac OS X included, simply add the actual data blocks from deleted files to their Free Pool, and do not notify the drive controller that the data blocks are no longer needed.

     

    That is false information.

     

    Instructions are sent to ALL storage devices when data is deleted in the OS, otherwise the data would appear intact if connected to a different machine. The SSD controller is insturcted to remove the data from the directory and its programming understands that such command means it can clear the blocks for use when it has unused processing/data cycles.

     

    In the normal course of business, these data blocks are not over-written automatically. This is what allows third-party "deleted File Rescue" programs to recover some of your files after you nominally deleted them.

     

    That is false information.

     

    Data is written progressively to a drive from outer track to inner (in a hard drive) and oldest cleared to youngest (in an SSD, called "wear leveling"). That means when you delete a file in a hard drive, that space will be first to get written over and first cleared to be ready to write in an SSD.

     

    TRIM provides that notification and can allow the SSD to deal with the "un-needed" data.

     

    TRiM is obsolete. Modern SSDs have Garbage Collection internally, independant of the OS. That is why Sandforce controllers have issues with TRIM.

     

    These drives are just a small circuit card internally

     

    You don't understand what SoC (system on chip) is?

     

    I removed an early one

     

    That is your problem, you're dissecting a fish to try and understand how a cat works. Technology progresses very rapidly. Todays SSDs are significantly different and smarter in controllers, memory cells and programming than those of even three years ago.

    or in a 2008 and earlier if you wire up the SATA ODD ports from the motherboard

     

    The ODD connectors are only present in 2006 models. The 2008 revision elininated installation of the connectors. Per Apple.

     

    Grant, you use big words to sound like you know what you're doing but most all you have said in this thread  is wrong. I suggest you take some time to catch up on technology of the last 3 years.

  • BitterCreek Level 1 Level 1 (100 points)

    Grant,

    A bit less righteousness on your part could lead to a more productive discussion.

    If you don't like being proven wrong, please don't post misinformation.

     

    The actual drive extents (where the data blocks from the file are stored) are NOT routinely cleared, unless you choose "Secure Empty Trash" or use a similar method.

    That is only true on hard drives, not an SSD.

    Unless you power down the drive immediately after deleting a file, it cannot be recovered even by special software.

     

    There is no need to move the drive to another computer. The data blocks of accidentally-deleted files CAN be recovered through third-party Utilities. Norton Utilities, Tech Tool Pro, and Data Rescue all perform this trick daily.

    You completely missed my point.

     

    That would be true if data were never deleted. But as I mentioned above, in Mac OS X the algorithm used is "first fit".

    Also false.

    And again, you completely missed my point about "antique OS'."

     

    This simply does not happen in rotating drives, unless Mac OS X finds the files are both large and badly fragmented.

    Once again, you completely missed the fact this discussion is about SSDs.

     

    But that is not sufficient when the System Software does not communicate which blocks are "not needed" any more. That communication is exactly TRIM.

    That is false information.

    The "delete" call to change the directory is all that is needed.

     

    The 2008 model was issued with ATA optical drives. The ODD connectors were still present on that model.

    Incorrect.

    The ODD solder pads are present, nut not the connectors.

    Two hard drives running in Raid 0 will be just as fast.

    Incorrect.

    There is no hard drive on earth that can match the access time (IOPS) of even the cheapest SSD.

  • ssls6 Level 4 Level 4 (2,845 points)

    IOPS? Really?  Maybe you should put your activity monitor in IO mode and watch how many IOPS you need for a single user workstation with plenty of ram.

  • BitterCreek Level 1 Level 1 (100 points)

    Said by somebody who has never owned an SSD.

     

    Hard drives are good for mass storage, thats it. SSD surpasses them in everything except raw capacity and $/GB.

  • smuuudge Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Blimey guys, i was only after some general advice on what works and what doesnt in my system! Seems my post has been hijacked by a technical dissagreement!

     

    Anyway, some more research reveals OCZ have released the Vertex 4, it uses a reliable Everest Controller apparently. Does anyone have any first hand experience of putting a Vertex 3 or 4 in a 2008 (intel) Mac Pro?

     

    If so should i be going for a 3.5" or 2.5" drive and should it be SATA II or III?

     

    Thanks in advance.

  • BitterCreek Level 1 Level 1 (100 points)

    i was only after some general advice on what works and what doesnt in my system!

    All drives that have a SATA connection will work in your computer.

    Does anyone have any first hand experience of putting a Vertex 3 or 4 in a 2008 (intel) Mac Pro?

    All drives that have a SATA connection will work in your computer. It doesn't matter if its II or III.

     

    There are almost no 3.5" SSD drives in existance beyond Apple's $1000 512GB model. You will need a drive adaptor to make an SSD directly fit in your computer.

  • smuuudge Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    BitterCreek wrote:


    There are almost no 3.5" SSD drives in existance beyond Apple's $1000 512GB model. You will need a drive adaptor to make an SSD directly fit in your computer.

     

    It seems OCZ do a 3.5" Vertex?

     

    http://www.ocztechnology.com/ocz-vertex-2-sata-ii-3-5-ssd.html

  • BitterCreek Level 1 Level 1 (100 points)

    Avoid the 2 and get the 3.

     

    <Link Edited By Host>

  • japamac Level 7 Level 7 (24,390 points)

    I have a Vertex 3, a couple Agility 3, an OWC and a couple Corsair Force 3 SSDs.

    All good drives, all recommended.

     

    Use of any OS version from 10.5 through 10.8 has shown no ill performance with any of the above drives in MP, Mini, MBP and PPC machines. Win 7 also seems to like the OCZ anc Corsair drives.

     

    The following gives a good accounting of the OCZ Vertex 3 as tested in a Mac Pro:

    http://www.barefeats.com/ssd6g02.html

  • Grant Bennet-Alder Level 9 Level 9 (52,130 points)

    japamac-

     

     

     

    Do you ever get these drives near full, or are they fairly static?

     

    Are you using TRIM? (available by patching in 10.6 and later)

  • japamac Level 7 Level 7 (24,390 points)

    I keep them static; OS and applications, roughly 160-190 GB of 240 GB capacity each. All Home files are on second drives.

    Of course they (the SSDs) get the obligatory VM workout.

     

    No special maintenance sets on my part, mostly due to laziness, but also, not really sure what all the fuss is about.

    Sure, I read the articles, but I am more interested in a low maintenance tech approach. I have enough high maintenance aspects with my hobby....

    The varying articles and research tend to get pretty confusing with regard to consensus, too much of some borders on alarmist.

     

    That's a sure turn off......

     

    Also, I view SSD, especially the older ones, as experimental tech; no one really knows how long or how hard they will go. I don't trust them, or rather, know how well I should trust them.

    I just want them to work or there is no sense using them. There are still Velociraptors available for tower use if one needs fast.... Notebooks do need the SSD benefit, however.

     

    No, no TRIM sets.

     

    The oldest SSD is 2 yrs and some, the others pretty much after they were released  (8-18 months) and had maker backed sales promotions (read big discounts).

    All are in use daily.

     

    I haven't seen any performance glitches nor have I seen any degradation, in spite of my neglectful use habits..