iTunes Match: cannot delete anymore only hide

At this time iTunes is the only way to manage music in iTunes Match. Additionally, iTM does not use your iCloud online storage.

Yes, I really don't like it! I am a music producer and many times I add unfinished songs on iTunes, just rough mixes that I want permanently delete, why I have to keep all this ****? Have no sense!

Annabelle, it appears you don't understand the distinction between iCloud and iTunes Match. iTunes Match is simply a way to match your own music to the music on Apple's iTunes servers. A "matched" song simply means iTunes happens to have the same song on their servers and they've paired them up. When you delete, it makes sense to hide the song in the cloud since it's no longer paired (or not hide, if you want the song to stay on Apple's server and not store it locally). You obviously can't delete Apple's copy of the song, so "hide" is a better term. For uploaded siongs, I confess that the distinction is a bit less clear, but even then, your music is not filling up your iCloud space. Though th terminology is perhaps confusing, iTunes Match and iCloud are not the same thing (from the user's end).

Xian, I don't think you're understanding the problem. I'm having it too. The song is in iTunes Match (not purchased, not in iCloud storage, but added manually to my iTunes library and then uploaded to Match when it wasn't matched to an item in the iTunes store), but when I go to delete it I get the "Hide in iCloud" message.

Before today (though admittedly, it's probably been a few weeks since I tried to delete anything so I can't say exactly when the change happened) I would get the option to "Delete from iTunes Match". I wouldn't care much, except that if I can't delete anything that passes through iTunes I'm going to hit the 25,000 song limit sooner rather than later.

When iTunes 11 was released Apple changed the word "delete" to "hide" in this dialog. Otherwise the functionality has not changed. It appears that hidden tracks do not count against the 25k track limit.

I understand, but it's not a "problem," per se. As Michael Allbritton has responded, it just a change in wording. You couldn't technically delete matched songs in iCloud, since they only existed on Apple's servers. Hiding makes more sense in that context. As far as uploaded songs go, it's unclear at the moment if "hide" is a true delete, or just doesn't count against your limit. Either way, nothing appears to have changed from before 11.space. This is not the case, and never has been.

As to the original question, it had to do with iTunes Match using iCloud. From the start iTunes Match did not use your iCloud space (at least, not for the first 25,000 sings).

There might be a workaround for this. when deleting the song, leave the option to hide unchecked. once you have deleted the song then delete the online version by deleting the song again.

Xian, it is absolutely a problem, if the wording is going to be so unclear. Whether or not it's technically deleted from Apple's servers I couldn't care less. "Hide" certainly implies it's still going to be in my iTunes Match account, the same way I can "hide" an app in my iTunes store Purchased list but later I can unhide it. Even it was still technically on the server after the old kind of "deleting," only I should have access to it, so it may as well be deleted. At the very least Apple needs to update the Knowledge Base article to make the distinction clear, and a more logical path would be to reinstate the old wording, which makes far more sense for non-purchased items.

And Xian, the original question is about iTunes Match, not iCloud. As you should be able to see from the image I included above, the new delete dialog box says "Hide in iCloud" not "Hide in iTunes Match." That is very confusing, and another thing Apple really ought to change.

Labk25, your method doesn't work. The cloud version of the track still says "hide" when I delete it.

I have verifed that "hiding" the tracks seems to take them out of the count for iTunes Match, so that's good. I just hope I don't get a notice in a couple months saying I've gone past my iTunes Match limit because those "hidden" tracks are invisibly counting towards my limit.

Hi Scott,

You are correct that hiding tracks are not counted for iTunes Match purposes. I have just under 24k non purchased tracks in match. In addition to this I have around 7,500 track with removed iCloud status - the majority of these tracks were previously uploaded. I suspect that the bulk of these tracks are "hidden" on the Apple servers.

The good thing about this is if you wish to re-add these deleted tracks, they are immediately recognised as previously being uploaded. The downside is that if you are trying to get previously uploaded tracks to match, this is unlikely to happen unless you change track to a different format.

Jim

Xian, it is absolutely a problem, if the wording is going to be so unclear.

The wording is not unclear. I am merely surmising that the song may be deleted at some point. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence pointing to the fact that uploaded songs are not deleted (at least not immediately). In fact, there is the distinct poissibility that "delete" was the wrong word to begin with, and that Apple has changed things to more accurately reflect what is happening. In other words, they've corrected the problem you didn't know you had, and that correction is now what you take issue with. Again, there is no problem here, per se.

Whether or not it's technically deleted from Apple's servers I couldn't care less. "Hide" certainly implies it's still going to be in my iTunes Match account, the same way I can "hide" an app in my iTunes store Purchased list but later I can unhide it. Even it was still technically on the server after the old kind of "deleting," only I should have access to it, so it may as well be deleted.

Who says anyone other than you has access? You are assuming here. More importantly, did you read the Terms of Service? Is there not a clause that says whatever you upload to Apple's servers becomes their property? Welcome to "the cloud." What's yours is not yours once uploaded.

a more logical path would be to reinstate the old wording, which makes far more sense for non-purchased items.

It would not be logical if Apple is not deleting your songs. If they are, indeed, hiding them, "hide" is not only the more logical word-choice, it is the more accurate one as well.

And Xian, the original question is about iTunes Match, not iCloud. As you should be able to see from the image I included above, the new delete dialog box says "Hide in iCloud" not "Hide in iTunes Match." That is very confusing, and another thing Apple really ought to change.

What Annabelle wrote, and the piece to which I responded, was "Where can I manage my icloud space for iTunesMatch?" So yes, this is a question about iCloud (among other things). My answer was correct: you cannot manage the iTunes Match portion of iCloud (it is not like, say, Pages in that respect). Your confusion may stem from thinking of "iTunes Match" as some sort of "thing" rather than just a subscription. Put differently, everything you do with Apple in the cloud falls under the rubric of "iCloud." "iTunes Match" is simply a service to pair your songs up to Apple's songs, and upload unpaired songs to a non-user-managed portion of iCloud as a convenience.

I have verifed that "hiding" the tracks seems to take them out of the count for iTunes Match

Yes, as we said.

Xian, if anybody else other than I have access to my uploaded, non-purchased iTunes Match tracks then Apple is leaving itself open to being sued into bankruptsy by the music industry. No user aggreement I have with Apple can override the original copyrights. Apple's agreement with the music industries that allows iTunes Match to exist is a "digital locker" agreement. If Apple is sharing songs around to people who haven't uploaded/matched them then they're violating DMCA in about a zillion ways.

And yes, iTunes Match is it's own thing! I pay for it separately from iCloud! If Apple is going to start conflating the terminology for the two different services I'm paying two separate fees for, they'd better **** well start explaining that terminaolgy better.

I'm glad you're not confused. Maybe you're just a genius. Or maybe you need to consider that other people have different use cases than you, and you're not every user.

A few more thoughts: if Apple is using some sort of data-deduplication, then it's entirely possible someone has uploaded that song before. In that case, it would not be "yours" (in a technical sense) and therefore not something you could delete. What's more, a ripped song is not "owned" to begin with. Rather, we just have a license to use it.

Original content is different, but Apple has no way of knowing this in an automated process. In this case, I assume the user has contact Apple directly to have content deleted (or not upload it in the first place).

Make no mistake, this is a legal question for Apple, and the change in terms more than likely simply reflects that.

No, not a genius. I just understand the legalities. I just made a post, but it wasn't in direct response to you. It applies, but I'll highlight:

You don't own the song you uploaded, and Apple's agreement with the rcording industry most certainly supersedes whatever agreement you think you have with them. You don't own the song you upload, so Apple can do with it as they please. If they choose to leave it on their server, they certainly may. In fact, the recording industry may well have demanded such (remember, it's still unclear as to whether songs are "laundered" by iTM).

As for iTM being its own thing, you misunderstand. Both it and iCloud storage fall under "iCloud." You're not paying for "iCloud" and "iTunes Match." Instead, you might think of "iCloud: iTunes Match" and "iCloud: Storage." This is what I meant. Chalk lack of clarity up to replying pre-coffee.

As for my uses vs others', I have a decent grasp of the legalities involved here. It may well be that other users want what is not legally possible. If that is the case, and I am unique in that I don't see an inherent problem with Apple conducting its business in accordance with contracts that supersede your desires, so be it.

No matter what, you can be sure that Apple is not violating DMCA. If they don't let you delete your uploaded songs, it may well be because you don't have the legal right to exercise such control. The cloud brings all sorts of legal challenges that have yet to be settled.

Xian Rinpoche wrote:

As for iTM being its own thing, you misunderstand. Both it and iCloud storage fall under "iCloud." You're not paying for "iCloud" and "iTunes Match." Instead, you might think of "iCloud: iTunes Match" and "iCloud: Storage." This is what I meant. Chalk lack of clarity up to replying pre-coffee.

And what you seem to be misunderstanding is I don't care about that difference. No one should. If I'm interacting with iTunes Match it should give me a message that tells me about the track's status in iTunes Match -- not iCloud. I'm not a mindreader, I can't tell if "iCloud" means ITunes Match or not ITunes Match without an explanation Apple should be providing.

And you are misrepresenting my argument, again. Sigh. As I said, I don't care if Apple technically deletes a nonpurchased track off their servers. DON'T CARE. But if I delete it from my local library and instruct it to be deleted from iTunes Match than it should be deleted FROM MY PERSPECTIVE. The fact that Apple is using the term "hidden" implies that it's still IN MY ITUNES MATCH ACCOUNT, and counting against my total song count. Hidden things are still there, you just can't seem them. Now maybe you're right and in this one specific instance "hidden" really means "deleted," but only Apple knows that for sure and Apple should explain that.

Scott, there may be confusion on a different issue here, so let me offer a brief excursus.

When you upload a song, you do not actually say to Apple "I own this song." Instead, you say "The recording industry has granted me a license to use this song." Apple can then say "and they granted Xian the same license, so we'll store one copy and you can both download it in accordance with your license." When you say "OK, delete it," Apple says "can't. You don't have rights to delete a song. Anyway, Xian needs it, so we'll just hide it for you."

This is what I mean by "data deduplication" (here). Basically, Apple does not store 100 copies of the same uploaded song. It stores one, and then remembers that 100 subscribers have a license to that song.

Does that make better sense?