Apple Event: May 7th at 7 am PT
I've been running Windows using boot camp on a Mac Mini with Snow Leopard. I just got a new iMac, trying to decide if I should continue to use boot camp or if I should try Parallels. Any thoughts, ideas, etc. would be greatly appreciated.
Dennis Kulpa wrote:
My Mini was shipped with Leopard installed, but the disks in the package were Tiger and a Leopard Upgrade. BUT, they were specific to the Mini - I tried loading them on another computer (a Dual 2G Power Mac G5) and they were not recognized. I upgraded to Snow Leopard with the SL upgrade disk that Apple sold when it came out. The "virgin" copy of SL 10.6.3 is available from the Apple Store for $19.99
Your Mac Mini must be Intel, as Snow Leopard will not work on a PowerPC Mac Mini. Hence the Tiger and Leoaprd discs you were given would also only work on Intel Macs. Hence their failure on a Dual 2G Power Mac G5 was due to the fact that this Mac is PowerPC, not necessarily because they were "Mac Mini specific."
Does the Tiger disc look like this:
Does the Leopard disc look like this:
or do they look like this:
Dennis Kulpa wrote:
...So I either use Boot Camp with my Win 7 64-bit Pro or I run XP under Parallels 8; either way, it looks like Mountain Lion stays on the machine.
Maybe I am confused? I understand that you want to make NO changes to your Mac Mini. But as to your 2011 iMac:
I see three different issues in this statement and understand them to apply to your 2011 iMac:
I thought you wanted to install Windows XP on your refurbished 2011 iMac (and now I understand that maybe you want your 2011 iMac it to boot into Snow Leopard)?
1. Mountain Lion vs. Snow Leopard on your iMac: Did you give the Apple Rep the model and serial number of that iMac? If so, and told them that you need a replacement of the original install disc, they should offer you the Restore Disc for that model iMac, which would be Snow Leopard.
Tell them you want the original restore disc for that specific iMac and see what they offer you (it is technically not a sale; they offer the replacement disc for free with a $17.95 replacement/shipping charge).
2. Windows XP in Bootcamp on your iMac while booting Mt. Lion: In any event, if you read the User Tip I linked ( User Tip: BootCamp - Install Windows XP & then Windows 7 ), you should be able to install Windows XP into Bootcamp on your 2011 refurbished iMac running Mt. Lion with only the Windows XP install disc and a Windows 7 upgrade disc; and
3. Windows XP in Bootcamp on your iMac even without the Snow Leopard install disc: You can install Windows XP even without having a Snow Leopard Restore disc -- it is not needed for Windows XP.
And now maybe you want to restore your iMac to boot Snow Leopard, too?
Please clarify all of this for me.
The Mini is an Intel Mac - Macmini2,1 (A1176) Core 2 Duo, 2GHz. It's currently running 10.6.8 on the Mac side and XP SP3 on the Windows side. The Tiger disks (2) are the gray-faced Apple logo disks; the Leopard upgrade disk is the black/purple OS X disk. And you are correct, I DO NOT need/want/plan to make any changes to this system.
I now have the iMac, set up from the Refurb store with Mountain Lion. This is my first contact with ML, only had the machine for a week, so strictly from an OS X standpoint, I don't know enough yet to decide whether ML is better/worse than Snow Leopard (or Tiger, which I still run on a 9-year-old Power Mac).
What I WANT to do is set up the iMac to run Windows as well. As I understand it, I can:
use Boot Camp and and run with Windows. The iMac has Boot Camp 5.0.0 which, according to what I've read at the Apple support pages, will not allow me to install XP; I have to run with Win 7. This is what Apple says. To do this with my older XP software I have to use the 64-bit Pro version to run in XP mode; this is the version of Win 7 that I have, I just don't know ANYTHING about Win 7 to know how this will work compared to just running XP natively.
I can use Parallels 8 which, supposedly, will allow me to run XP or Win 7; if I do this, I could stick with XP and not worry about learning anything about Win 7. On this approach, I have no experience with Parallels so I have no feel for running Windows in virtual mode versus running it natively with Boot Camp.
These are the basic premises that I started with when began this discussion the other day. Logically, it seems like running in Boot Camp should be a more efficient way to operate versus the virtual machine; the advantage of Parallels seems to be the time saved in switching back-and-forth, along with better use of the hard drive space by not having to allocate a specific Boot Camp sector.
When I talked to the Apple rep last night, I gave him model and serial number; he said that a 10.6.7 restore disk does not exist in their system. FWIW, I talked with a tech rep the day I received the iMac because I had a question on a different subject. He told me that, based on the serial number, this machine was originally set up with Lion when it was "new".
I did read the link that you sent regarding setting up XP using the Win 7 disk. Sounds interesting, guess it's something that I could try if I really want.
I don't NEED to set up the iMac to boot with Snow Leopard. That was your suggestion as a method to run Boot Camp with XP instead of converting to Win 7. As stated earlier, I haven't worked with Mountain Lion long enough to compare it to Snow Leopard.
Hope this clears things up.
Dennis
Yes, thank you for those clarifications:
1. Your Tiger disc is a machine-specific disc and cannot be used to install into any other Mac.
2. Your Leopard appears to be a "retail" version and as such is valuable if you ever want to install Leopard into any other Intel Mac that can run Leopard or if you want to sell it on eBay.
3. You must determine from others (software publisher; users forums) if your programs will run on Windows XP mode in the newer Windows 7 or 8: I have no experience here.
If it were up to me, to guarantee compatibility I would either attempt to install WIndows XP into Bootcamp, from the instructions in the linked article, or use Parallels to install and run Windows XP.
4. You say you have the iMac 12,2 and according to MacTracker it originally ran 10.6.6 and then 10.6.7 Snow Leopard. Maybe MacTracker is wrong. What size screen does your iMac have; 27"? Someone else with better knowledge of the 2011 iMac should jump in here.
5. I think my earlier comment was misinterpreted. I do not suggest that you downgrade to Snow Leopard for day to day purposes. It was only a suggestion for one way to get Bootcamp to install Windows XP and then go back to Mt. Lion. That method is labor intensive and I believe the User Tip article is a much easier method to install Windows XP on your Bootcamp, but that will work ONLY if your Mac can boot Snow Leopard. I did mention that if your machine will boot Snow Leopard it may have some increased resale value in the future.
So, in conclusion, I think you need to contact the software publishers about how well their programs will run in the XP mode in the newer Windows 7 or 8 (or read user forums) and if they have acceptable results, that is probably the easiest and best road for you to pursue on your iMac.
The Leopard disk is labeled "CPU Drop-in DVD". I recall trying to use it by itself and it didn't work. I installed a larger hard drive in the Mini and wanted to do a clean install so I put the Leopard disk in and it didn't work; I had to install Tiger first and do Leopard, THEN do the Snow Leopard upgrade.
The iMac is a 27". I've sent a note to the first tech rep I talked to last week to find out if he can confirm more about the origin of this machine; don't know if he works weekends so I may not know 'til Monday.
It's not that difficult to set up Boot Camp with Win 7 and then load up one or two of my apps to see if/how they work. It only takes time which, now being retired, I have plenty of. In fact, my plan is to make a back-up of the base install and then start "experimenting" - try one thing, if I don't like it, remove it and try something else. If I get to the point where something is screwed up, I can always do a restore and start over. Since Mountain Lion is Apple's latest system and Win 7 is Microsoft's ( I just DON'T like what I've seen of Win 8 so far), I figure to start with Boot Camp with Win 7, try the XP mode and see how things work. I already have Parallels 8 (bought a Win 7/Parallels 8 combo package from OWC) so I can do the Parallels/XP approach as a "trial 2" if needed.
I didn't misinterpret you Snow Leopard comment - just clarifying where that "idea" came from. Wasn't trying to dis you on that, sorry if it came across as that.
Things keep getting in the way; I had hoped to already have Windows loaded and playing this morning but I just haven't gotten to it yet. Right now, it looks like it will be tomorrow at the earliest, maybe Monday, before I've got something running and can give you an update. But I will follow up and let you know how/where it all goes.
Thanks for the input.
Dennis
Sounds like you've got it all under control, Dennis.
I reviewed the User Tip on installing Windows XP and there is a problem. It requires the Windows 7 Upgrade disc and it appears you have the complete Windows 7 install disc. It may not work with that disc, but it looks like you are adept at "trying!"
If your Windows 7 disc does not work and you have access to the Windows 7 upgrade (even without a serial number, as remember, you are tricking Bootcamp to allow the installation of XP, not 7), go ahead and try that.
Good luck and keep reaching for the skies!
It's been a LONG week!
The three stacking programs that I use will all run natively in Windows 7 64-bit pro, so I could upgrade from XP for those. However, the version of Photoshop that I have, CS4, will only run in the XP mode, which is just a virtual window in Win 7. I set up a boot camp partition with Win 7 and XP mode. I ran the stacking programs in Win 7 and they were fine. Even in XP mode, along with all the various updates to Win 7, Photoshop was still tempermental; actions were not as smooth and I would get occasional lock-ups.
So I went back into the OS X side, set up Parallels 8 with XP. For some reason, I had problems getting all of the various updates for XP from Microsoft. The version I have is XP service pack 2; I had to go in and manually find, download, and install the service pack 3 update, along with Internet Explorer 7 (my install disk has IE 6) before I could get the automatic update system to work. I don't know if this is because I was going through the Parallels virtual machine or if Microsoft is gradually phasing out all support for XP. Got all of that done and then installed my stacking programs and Photoshop. One of the stacking programs would not work initially; I did a search on the web and it was due to some missing Virtuall C++ libraries. These should have been picked up when I did the search for automatic updates but they weren't so I had to manually download and install that as well. After all of this, everything seems to be working OK. Subjectively, I would say the stacking programs ran a little faster in Boot Camp than in Parallels, probably because they were running natively instead of through the virtual machine. Photoshop appears to be running smoother in Parallels than in Boot Camp; I guess Parallels/XP is a "better" virtual window for it than Win7/XP mode.
Right now, I think I'll trash the Boot Camp partition and continue to run everything in Parallels. If/when I can scrape up the money, I'll buy the latest Mac version of Photoshop to run on the OS X side and just leave the stacking programs in Parallels.
Dennis
Glad to hear you found your solution.
And to all of those naysayers about Lion/Mt. Lion's lack of Rosetta (to run PowerPC apps) and their claim that even a PC with Windows 7/8 can run XP to this day, looks like the answer is yes, but not without Microsoft making you do much work to jump through all those hoops!
I could go into a VERY LONG philosophical discussion/rambling on that comment but this is not the place to do it. Suffice it to say that I found a solution that works for me, at least for now. And, going back to the question I asked that started this discussion, the answer is "it depends". It depends on what you're trying to do (imaging, CAD, games) and what you have to work with (software and hardware). Fortunately for me since I'm retired, I have the time to try a number of different approaches and work to an acceptable solution. Of course, there was a lot of "wailing and gnashing of teeth" in the process but I expected that going into it.
Take care,
Dennis
One LAST (?) comment!
Sitting around having coffee this morning, I had a crazy idea. As I stated earlier in this discussion, I have a Mac Mini Running 10.6.8, with Win XP running in Boot Camp. I have the OS cloned on an external drive so I connected that drive to my iMac and used it to boot up. The iMac booted up just fine that way. SO, if it will do that, why not wipe the drive on the iMac and use the 10.6.8 clone from the Mini to restore it. I would then have the iMac running on 10.6.8, which contains Boot Camp 3.0.4. That should then allow me to set up a Boot Camp partition with Win XP, along with my astronomy programs and the old version of Photoshop. With that, I would then have a "duplicate" of the systems I run on the Mini but on a faster machine, which is where I was trying to go when this whole thing all started a month ago.
DUNNO! After all of the time I spent in front of this thing over the last week, I'm not sure I want to go through all of that but I'm gonna give it some thought.
😕
Dennis
You remember this thread better than I do, but:
You can close SL back over to your iMac, but Bootcamp must be a separate partition setup by the Bootcamp assistant.
There is a program, called Winclone, I think, that you can use to clone your Bootcamp partition and after a new, fresh Bootcamp partition is established on your iMac, you can then use Winclone to restore your files from one Bootcamp to the other... in theory! I have never successfully used Winclone; but probably no harm in trying.
Yeah, I'm aware of the fact that the cloning will only cover the Mac side, and I have heard of Winclone. But the "getting-Snow-Leopard-on-the-iMac-without-having-a-10.6.7-restore-disk" is the issue here. Even if I have to do the Boot Camp partition from scratch and re-load XP, all of the updates, and my software, that's no big deal. Now knowing the extent of the issues with my old version of Photoshop, what's the lesser of two evils - doing all of this work to transform my iMac into a Snow Leopard/BootCamp/XP machine or spending $700 to buy a new copy of Photoshop? Once again, what I have now works, how much more "bang-for-the-buck" do I get by taking it any further? And am I willing to spend the time or money to do it. That's a (relatively) subjective decision that I'll have to make.
Dennis
Olgelthorpe seems to be the King of the cloning Snow Leopard to MacBook Pros around here (maybe iMacs, too?)...
Let's see if I can find his post...
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4884272?answerId=21503758022#21503758022
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4764218?answerId=21190812022#21190812022
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3816129?answerId=17911433022#17911433022
Thanks, there's some interesting stuff here. A lot of it is what I was already considering - making a clone of my 10.6.8 Mini and using that to replace the system on my iMac. Something I picked up here that I had not considered is using my Mini and my SL disks to make a clean install of SL to an external drive and then use that for the iMac so that I can a clean install there. I've got a few 16GB flash drives laying around so I might just give it a try.
Dennis
I'm gonna try the clone approach. I'm just not sure yet if I'm going to clone the Mini and use that on the iMac, or do a clean install of Snow Leopard to an external drive and use that. Whichever way I go, it will be a day or two before I get to it. I spent so much time last week screwing around with the BootCamp/Parallels/XP/Win7 stuff that I'm behind on a bunch of other stuff - gotta get caught up on that to keep my wife happy so that she'll let me play like this....
One question, probably for Ogelthorpe:
His recommended approach is to make a separate partition on the ML drive and load the SL clone onto that. As long as I've got a back-up of my ML drive, is there anything wrong with just wiping the drive on the iMac completely and installing the clone that way? Also, if I wipe the iMac drive, do I have to do anything special to get rid of the hidden ML Recovery Partition?
Clear Skies, (it's an astronomy thing),
Dennis
boot camp vs. parallels
