Previous 1 26 27 28 29 30 Next 598 Replies Latest reply: Oct 15, 2014 8:14 PM by Hannaabe Go to original post Branched to a new discussion.
  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 (7,470 points)

    Ah, so you expect Apple to give away free USB chargers to anyone that bought a counterfeit one?  I see.


    That simply exposes your position.  You want something free, for nothing out of your pocket.


    We have different world-views, my friend.  I have no problem expending my personal time, effort and/or money if I want something.  I don't assume that I'm 'entitled'.  I expect to pay for my personal effects. 

  • Sid Harper Level 1 (10 points)

    No I don't expect them to give them away but it makes business sense so why not?


    The core of my argument about the phone failing is very simple. Apple's update caused the failure. Doesn't matter why.


    If I took my car in for a service and it comes back with a fault which is consistent with many other that experienced the same, the cause is very probably the service procedure/materials.


    See the difference between that and it 'just failing' by itself?

  • Sid Harper Level 1 (10 points)

    I will only be happy when Apple admit there is a cause of failures (they will have enough sample units back by now) and offer a universal solution. If they choose to replace units that's up to

    them but a board level repair would be satisfactory.


    Many cases in history of mass repair programmes not just for safety reasons in automobiles (including paint defects

    by Volkswagen), hard drives (Hitachi), etc.


    These are premium devices (and being paid for either outright or through high value cellular plans). Noone expects them

    for free and Apple are not giving them away but making a very enviable margin irrespective of how they are packaged up financially to be sold. There is already a premium in the price for design and quality of service. The latter is lacking.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 (7,470 points)

    It makes business sense to give away free chargers to people that bought counterfeit chargers? 


    Name me a company that does that; gives free merchandise away to people that bought counterfeit items.


    The update revealed the problem; it did not cause it.  The hardware problem would have eventually appeared, especially if the device got too warm at one point.  And I mean warmer than normal, but not so warm as to trigger the overheat sensor.  Heat potentially causes & fixes this issue.  The iOS update simply introduced more 'heat' than the chip could handle.  The same amount of 'heat' could have been introduced even without the iOS update.


    There are reports of the wi-fi chip failing without an iOS update involved.  The core issue is that the wi-fi chip itself is too sensitive to heat (this is a basic explanation, but sufficient for this discussion).


    The source of the heat is irrelevant.


    Example:  Your car is brand new from the dealer.  But unknown to you or the manufacturer, it has a defect.  The paint will be ruined if exposed to salt water.  Now, you never get near the ocean.  But, one day, the manufacturer recommends using a carwash with saline.  You do so. 


    Now, does it matter whether the salt water came from ocean spray as you drove along the coastline, or from a saline car wash?  The car wash did not CAUSE the defect.  It made the defect readily visible.


    The heat reveals the defect.  The source of the heat isn't that big of a deal.  Even without the iOS update, the wi-fi would eventually have an issue, since it was defective to begin with. 

  • Sid Harper Level 1 (10 points)

    They're not free in the UK. It's a trade-in programme effectively.


    If there are substandard components that fail outside of MTBF or due to be driven in a way not suitable for their operating environment or quality of installation, the responsibility lies with the manufacturer irrespective of warranty. I'm not sure where this fails to register with you? I know an engineer who works for a firm that makes components used in radios etc. they are currently paying out compensation of several million to their clients and putting right the problem with replacement parts and cost of remediation due to defective manufacture.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 (7,470 points)

    By your logic, if the defective hardware did not reveal itself until, say five years after the warranty expired, the manufacturer still needs to provide a free replacement?  How about ten years?  Twenty?


    What amount of time would it take for the defect to become obvious and cause a problem, after the warranty expires, would you 'allow' the manufacturer to not be required to provide a free replacement?


    Let's start at the high end. Would you agree that fifty years after purchase, that if the defective component failed, for whatever reason, that the manufacturer is not required to replace the device for free?

  • Sid Harper Level 1 (10 points)

    You don't get it. It didn't die of natural causes, it was poisoned by a manufacturer's update which is more or less forced upon you.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 (7,470 points)

    And you didn't answer my question.  How long after the warranty expires is a 'fair & acceptable' amount of time for an electronic device to have no issues?  Is fifty years long enough?

  • Annette C. Level 1 (5 points)

    Depends on whether Apple still supports the device.  If they no longer bring out updates to the device, fine, warranty period suffices.


    If they're still bringing out updates, then they are responsible for the update not killing the hardware. 


    And if it's really defective hardware, Apple has replaced at least two in the past when the devices were past their standard warranty time. Remember the Apple Powerbook 5300 and the faulty logic boards of the circa 2002 iBook G3's?

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 (7,470 points)

    So, you expect a device to work properly after the warranty has expired fifty years ago?  Really?  I politely disagree.  I think that that is an excessive expectation.


    And on the other part, you've proven my point, Annette.  Apple has not issued an official statement on how they will handle this issue with the wi-fi chip.  Yet, so many people are screaming & panicking that Apple is screwing them over...  But you just showed that Apple has set a precedent of taking care of issues after the warranty has expired.


    In other words, those that know Apple's history as a whole know they don't try to screw over their customers.

  • Sid Harper Level 1 (10 points)

    So 50 years, no. Reasonable expected lifetime of the product in this kind of situation, yes they have a responsibility. I still use my old SE k700i as a spare but the UK law statute of limitation is 6 years. Seems reasonable for many things. Maybe that's why lawmakers chose that period.


    With all due respect you are extrapolating the argument in multiple irrelevant directions, which IMO is pointless. The principle under discussion as far as I'm concerned is simple - if you break it, you fix it! In annoy be expected to follow anything better than a manufacturer's maintenance procedure.


    If they cared so much, they would not be telling people to pay for a replacement. I can only assume the faulty handsets get sold on to professional refurbishment firms for spares or repair - they are not 'losing out' there either I can be sure.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 (7,470 points)

    My original point was that the software did not cause the problem, but simply revealed it.



    Actually, my first point was that iOS updates do not causing a third-party wi-fi router to fail.  Someone seemed to think that it was Apple's responsibility to update the firmware of the third-party wi-fi router.  Instead of checking for a firmware upgrade, the guy jumped to the conclusion that his wi-fi was broken.  IIRC, in a different thread, he even said his wi-fi wasn't greyed out, and that wi-fi worked on other routers, just not his home one.


    Anyways, after that, Marcio stated that this was NOT a hardware failure.  That's when I tried to clarify that it was a failure of the hardware indeed, but one that was revealed by the software.  Then it got into nitpicky semantics.  I gave a valid example of why it was defective devices having the issue, and not all devices.  If the software was causing the problem, then ALL devices running that software would have the issue.  But only the devices with pre-existing hardware defects had the problem. 


    Then it spun out of control, when all I was trying to do was clarify how the problem happened.  And for some reason, Marcio couldn't understand my analogy, which was actually pretty spot on. 


    Anyways, then it got into whether Apple was required to replace the phone.  Apple actually legally is NOT required, but is offering options above what is legally required, and may do even more.


    All I actually cared about was placing the blame where it belonged; on the wi-fi chip being defective, not the iOS being defective.  I've gotten bored trying to explain this.  I've offered multiple examples/analogies/explanations.


    Marcio said that Apple knew that "millions of its bottles can't hold more than 0.95 liters".  He claims that Apple knew the hardware was defective and would fail under the new iOS.  Ludicrous, and unfounded.  This is where he claimed that Apple new the iOS update would cause the problem.  If they knew the wi-fi chips were defective, which is what he says in the above quote, then they would obviously know the update would damage them.


    He says he never accused Apple of knowingly causing a problem.  His own words show differently.


    I'm all for accountability.  But I'm also for accuracy.  The iOS is not faulty.  (Some of) the wi-fi chips are.

  • MarcioV Level 1 (0 points)

    "He says he never accused Apple of knowingly causing a problem.  His own words show differently."


    Nope. I never said that. Once again, you are taking words out of context just to make your overstated point. I said over and over again that there are only two possibilities here: either 1) Apple did know, and acted irresponsibly; or 2) they didn't know, and now is the time to admit they messed up and address the issue.  Either way, it's bad for them because it's taking too long.


    PS: You read too fast, write too much, and provide almost no useful information. I say "almost" because you actually provided some entertaining stuff in the form of faulty water bottles, luxury wi-fi ramblings, 50-year warranties, and that gem that smartphones are mainly meant for talking and should not be expected to last over 12 months.

  • TJBUSMC1973 Level 5 (7,470 points)

    Sorry, Marcio, but you did say that Apple knew the 'bottles/wi-fi chips' were defective.  It's right there, in black and white.  But nice attempt at spinning your words around.  Just admit you were in error, and have changed your position from 'Apple did this intentionally' to 'Apple did this accidentally'.  At least that would be honest.


    Let's address your claims one more time:

    1. Describe to me an instance in which wi-fi access would be a necessity, when cellular data is available.  Even in an emergency, wi-fi isn't a necessity.  It's a luxury.

    2. I stated that the primary point (not the only point) of an iPhone is cell phone communication.  Otherwise, you would have just purchased an iPod Touch, which does everything an iPhone does, except phone calls (and SMS/MMS texting).

    3. I never said that a smart phone should last only 12 months.  What I said is that the WARRANTY is for 12 months.  Huge difference.  The average life-span will be much longer, but the minimum life span should be 12 months.  Do I need to explain to you how averages work now?


    Finally, I actually do side with the customer here.  I never said that Apple should NOT do more.  In fact, I've stated that I think, personally, that they should.  I even pointed out that Apple has done more in the past with defective items.  Your point has been that Apple is screwing over customers.  That's an extremist point of view.  You're on the far side of the spectrum.  Perhaps I shifted too far in the other direction to balance out your rantings.


    Let's be clear about my position:

    1. Apple is holding up their initial promise via the warranty.

    2. The customer, when purchasing the device, agreed to the terms of the warranty. (Marcio, if you wanted a guarantee that the iPhone would last for five years, for example, then you should have gotten that in writing, or purchased a device with such a guarantee.)

    3.  Apple is doing more than most similar companies in regards to out-of-warranty devices (regardless of the root cause of the problem) with discounted replacements.

    4. Apple has yet to release an official statement about their plans for this issue.

    5. This issue is, technically, extremely rare.  In the overall scheme of all the devices that are running 6.1.3+, it's barely a blip on the radar.  It's not enough for Apple to hold a press release or media conference.  It's a minor issue.  But they're still working on it.  No, they aren't calling you personally to update you.  Tim Cook isn't stopping by your house to personally apologize.  He isn't rubbing your feet, begging for forgiveness.


    But it is being addressed.  It's being researched.  It's being tested.  But to be honest?  It's not as huge of a problem as you make it out to be.  To the individual it affects?  Sure, it is a bad thing.  But there are bigger issues for Apple to address, and so those bigger issues are getting the lion's share of attention.  This issue is getting the amount of attention it deserves, based on the number of customers it is affecting.  It's not some pandemic spreading across iPhones globally.  It's a defect that affects a very, very small percentage of users.  Estimates are at about 0.5%, on the high end.


    The main difference between us, Marcio, is that you're a pessimist, and I'm an optimist.  I believe that Apple will address this issue appropriately, as they have done in the past.  Apple has an excellent track record in this area.  Yes, it's taking longer than some of you would like for a 'better' response.  But that doesn't mean it's not coming.


    In the meantime, either get the device replaced for free under warranty, or live with the issue for now or replace the phone at a 66% discount.  Because there's no other solution as of now.  And all of the complaining you've done in this thread?  It hasn't helped one iota.  You need to use the feedback channels.  Apple doesn't read these threads.  This is totally a user-to-user forum.  So, in the end, you've spent all this time complaining about an issue with your device, and no one that can do anything about it is listening.


    Go get your device diagnosed officially, Marcio.  IIRC, you haven't stated that you've done that yet.  You're operating upon an assumption.

  • myevemy Level 1 (0 points)

    got the same problem too. im not happy with my iphone 4s now. wht is the best thing to do?

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