G3 Pismo Powerbook - power? and bootup issues, won't see hd?

Question

G3 Pismo Powerbook - power? and bootup issues, won't see hd?

Ok this may be the weirdest most complex problem I’ve ever encountered...

I have a G3 Powerbook Pismo/Firewire which has been old faithful (and I’m fond of it, I even met my lovely wife on it) but I think this could herald the end, or at least the end of me spending any money on it...I’m running OSX.3.9 with 128meg of RAM.

I haven’t run with a battery for at least a couple of years, until recently I was living in Australia and they were too expensive....my battery was getting old, when my original yo-you ps/charger suffered the infamous insulation breakdown/corrosion near the terminal, it shorted out and the battery died that day. I replaced it with a new updated-looking yo-you with the white power cord - the old one was clear, and was breaking down inside, you could see it arcing and I’d replaced it with a generic cord....the old yo-yo also seemed to cause a great surge when it was plugged in - a big arc when it hit the contacts. new one didn’t.

I was trying to solve some network printing issues on it - with an HP 7210 Officejet, where their support stuff suggested printing issues could be solved by booting into Classic to install the OS9 drivers (I had previously done this by stealth by booting into a Classic partion and transferring the files over, I didn’t know you could boot into full OS9 mode on an OSX volume)

When I booted into Classic I couldn’t remember the filename of the installer I wanted and wasn’t configured in Classic for the net, so I tried to go back into OSX - then the fun started.

I could not get back into OSX - when I booted with the option key, I could see three system folder choices- the OS9 one, the OS9 partion (also with OS9 on it) and TWO OSX folders to my surprise - I had recently replaced the internal drive with a Samsung drive, (the Seagate drive rather prematurely started making clacking noises - haven’t RMA’d it yet, but it’s under warranty. I haven’t had good luck with harddrives in this laptop, this one’s my fourth....I did check temperature around the drives once, and it was within the manufacturer’s tolerance, but just....and no, the fan on the left never runs, I wish it would, it’s a lap-baker. Fan came on just once or twice, I wish I could force it to run more often.) and assumed that the cloning process (I used Carbon Copy Cloner) was responsible. I didn’t have any choice but to clone, because all my installer disks are still on their way from Australia with the rest of my stuff...

Anyway, I chose the OSX folder that had the mac face, as I seem to remember that indicates the system drive. Then it wouldn’t boot into OSX and eventually wouldn’t boot at all, just the blinking system folder/questionmark (I have noticed since installing the new drive it would always do that for a while then boot) - then it wouldn’t do anything at all.

Went to bed. This morning got a little more response after reseating/p-raming etc. I may have also accidentally gone into programmer mode - got the beep and the sleep light flashed rapidly, but it seemed ok in this regard when I disconnected power and pushed reset (remember there’s no main battery in this laptop)

I have not been able to boot with the ‘new’ hdd at all, it was working fine til all this started.

I have a Firewire caddy/cartridge system and a laptop adapter, also a USB mini drive box, by putting the old laptop drive in the self-powered (not bus powered) Firewire box, and putting the ‘new’ drive in the USB housing, I was able to get it to boot, although it took ages and ages, and a few different configurations, it seemed to hang at the loading Apple file system thingy...

So I am wondering if the swap OS thing was a coincidence, or whether the rebooting etc sent the power supply over the edge - the bottom of the yo-yo says it’s 24vdc, but testing without load (and insulating the outer sleeve to avoid a short) it’s reading around 16-17vdc. I don’t know if this is open-and-shut but I’ve seen marginal PC power supplies prevent hard drives from getting up to speed. On the other hand, since I was testing it without load, it might have been in some low-power mode.

I also wonder about the PRAM battery, occasionally I have to reset the clock if it hasn’t been plugged in (which seems to keep the PRAM up) - since there’s no main battery - but unplugged the PRAM (original) battery’s reading about 6.4vdc.

I then put the old seagate drive in the laptop, and was able to boot off it - is it just that the new drive’s faulty? I’ve been able to run disk utility and norton’s over it, and it hasn’t found any major faults - a couple of minor one’s I’m attributing to it not being the boot drive -so I’m confused...it’s accessible whilst it’s in the powered firewire box, files can be opened etc - but not when it’s in the USB enclosure.

Is it just the power supply? Am I going crazy? do I just throw more money at this thing? Maybe it's time for a replacement, but I'm not sure what I'd buy...

All suggestions appreciated.

On another point, I saw some mention of heatsink paste - there's a sort of pad on top of the heatsink thing under the heatshield, is that a replacement for heatsink paste, or is that underneath? Is it worth redoing? Thing has always run hot...

PB G4 400, Mac OS X (10.3.9)

Posted on May 25, 2006 1:45 PM

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Answer 1

May 25, 2006 2:30 PM in response to PETER BRADSTOCK

OK I don't think I mentioned - I can boot from the old drive, internally or externally, but not from the new. I can't look to see what the power draw is because I'm testing it at the moment (and it seems fine) - maybe it's a permissions thing, but I was reluctant to repair them since it wasn't the boot drive - could it be I'm looking at two problems, a power supply not giving enough to spin this drive up, and some sort of configuration issue arising from my startup disk issues last night?

BTW the power supply feels cooler than it usually does - it runs pretty warm and has been plugged in almost continually for at least a couple of years...

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Answer 2

cornelius

Level 6

17,826 points

May 25, 2006 4:42 PM in response to PETER BRADSTOCK

Peter:

You have so much information in your post I am having difficulty figuring what is going on. So let me recap what I do understand.

1. When you hit the power button you get a response from the computer, although it won't boot to the new internal HDD.

That suggests that it is not a power issue to me, unless I am missing something.

2. You are able to boot from an external HDD.

3. You are able to boot from the old HDD. (Did I get that right?)

My guess is that your OS got corrupted on the new HDD. Try booting from the Panther install CD (#1), go to the Installer Menu, open Disk Utility. Select your HDD in the left panel and First Aid tab in the Main panel. Click on Repair Disk. If errors are found run again, and again until DU reports no errors. If DU reports errors it cannot repair you will need to use a Utility like Tech Tool Pro or Disk Warrior.
Let us know how things go, and if my summary is wrong, point me in the right direction. If my hunch is right, the worse you will have is a complete reinstall. But we have to wait and see.
Good luck.
cornelius

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Answer 3

May 26, 2006 12:26 AM in response to cornelius

Sorry Cornelius, yes I did shoehorn a lot of info in there - so much happened all at once it was hard to tell what might have been related to what.

You are in essence correct in your summary of things, however, the way the computer responded initially made me wonder if there were other hardware issues, as the previous night, after several attempts to swap back to OSX.3 as my startup disk (on my new drive) the computer would not boot at all, and the screen remained blank. Looking at it from how you put it, maybe it is just corrupted, but the other odd things made me wonder. I don't think the new drive would mount when it was installed in the laptop even if I did attempt to boot from the old drive, mounted externally - I was fortunate to have these enclosures so I could work this way, otherwise I'd be toast.

If you're right and it's just corrupted, that's a relatively straightforward fix, I just have to juggle enclosures etc so I can clone the drive before I reinitialise it....I know a complete reinstall is the answer in the long run, but, as I think I mentioned, all my install and recovery disks are in transit and I can't get to them, and it would be expensive to buy them all again...

Initially I didn't get any response from the computer hitting the power button til I removed the new drive - hence my thinking it's power or the new drive itself - but I will approach it from this other angle too.

I had run disk utility over it again whilst it was in the firewire enclosure which I know can sometimes make corrupted disks more mountable - I verified/repaired the disk without it showing errors, but I only verified but didn't repair permissions, as I was concerned it might mess up the configuration of the disk etc - is that possible or am I worrying needlessly?

I just wondered what happens when you repair permissions on a system disk when you're not booting from it, does the 'ownership' of stuff on that disk remain the way that it should? To that point it all seemed ok.

I would love to run techtool or disk warrior over it but again, my disks are in transit...My copy of Nortons came with DW on it I think, but I'm not sure if it's a supported version for OSX.3 - I can go to their website and check.

I did run Nortons over the drive too - examine only - and the only thing it came up with was I think an ownership issue, which I've seen before and I think pertains to the drive not being mounted as a system drive - so I didn't touch anything - the rest of the issues were typical minor nortons ones - and I have heard the now-discontinued Norton for OSX may create more issues than it solves...

Thanks for all your help, I'll keep you posted.

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Answer 4

cornelius

Level 6

17,826 points

May 26, 2006 7:00 AM in response to PETER BRADSTOCK

Peter:

Thanks for the explanation.

In addition to looking at
1. possibility of a corrupted OS or directory issues
2. possibility of a bad HDD
now add a third
3. Norton.

Norton is known to cause havoc in OS X. The advice given by the old-timers like Kappy is to get rid of Norton. In keeping with that I would suggest as the first line of defence getting rid of Norton. You other ideas sound good.

Good luck.

cornelius

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Answer 5

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

May 26, 2006 8:57 AM in response to PETER BRADSTOCK

Peter,

If your old drive is working in the Pismo, I would do nothing further until your disks arrive if you can wait; you need your disks to troubleshoot this and also to get back up and running if something goes awry on your old, working HD.

You asked a few questions which possibly I can address:

- If you have removed the heat exchanger from the top of the CPU, you should replace the black thermal transfer pad. Once you break/tear this pad, its heat transfer properties are diminished. Use a razor blade to scrape off the material from both surfaces, then apply the new pad. Apple recommends not removing the heat exchanger unless you are replacing the CPU; the whole assembly (heat exchanger + microprocessor card) can be removed as one unit. I have not read of anyone using thermal paste in place of the pad so I would not recommend it...mating surfaces, contact area, etc, may not be correct.

- As Cornelius stated, never run Norton on OSX...period.

- You may already know this, but OSX is not bootable from USB drives, only FireWire, although I believe the Intel Macs do support it.

- You may end up with two OSX's on a drive depending on the settings in Carbon Copy Cloner. Ideally you first erase the the partition/volume to which you are cloning, then make sure you have selected 'make bootable' in the Preferences. Of course MacOS Extended Format is the format you want.

- What is the model number of your Samsung drive?

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Answer 6

May 26, 2006 12:09 PM in response to jpl

Hmm ok that answers one big question, I didn't know you couldn't boot from a USB drive, this one's the first I've owned - I would have chosen Firewire but this is a small town and stuff's limited. I will have to start buying stuff online I can see...

The reason I was asking about thermal paste was that there's an odd pad of material on the silver thing that runs to the heatsink next to the little fan, right under the little aluminum shield you have to remove to get to the RAM - I don't think I've taken the other thing off, unless the technician who installed some RAM for me did - which then went bad, and according to system profiler, I only have RAM in the top slot - but in "about this mac" it sees both. A bit odd. Is the thermal pad easy to get, or is it an apple-specific product? I don't think Apple are carrying many parts for Pismos any more, I called to get a part number for a battery - since I threw the old one out, and am using power adapter and the filler block - so if I buy a new battery, I'll have to rely on the third-party supplier to give me the right one...

I would happily run with the old hard drive, except it makes weird mechanical noises and I'm worrying about it dying. It hesitates, makes hissing sort of noises (not electrical) and then 'clunk click' noises - you literally have to tap on the side of the pismo case to shake it out of it. So I don't think it's long for this world - like I said, this new drive that's now being flakey is my fourth.

I do use the laptop a lot, but that seems excessive.

New drive is a Samsung MP0804H 80 gig 5400rpm/8m/PATA and draws .7A, the Seagate draws .47A (and is an ultra ATA- don't know the difference but are presumably compatible) - which made me wonder if the PSU is viable. You just about have me convinced that the new drive is corrupt though - it does fit the circumstances, it was just how weird everything was when it happened.

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Answer 7

May 26, 2006 12:26 PM in response to PETER BRADSTOCK

I forgot to mention, in the absence of having my installer disks, I'd just clone the old, working hdd to the new one and start again, except I have a few things not backed up - so I'd like to keep those. I haven't looked at it too closely but I suppose Carbon Copy cloner can just clone the OS related things without toasting my documents etc - (I also use MS Office 2001 so the Classic stuff is important too) - if I was just to replace the system type stuff, what things would I need to clone?

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Answer 8

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

May 26, 2006 9:45 PM in response to PETER BRADSTOCK

Peter,

Having to give your old HD a "nudge" to keep it working is amazing; time to get it backed up/cloned/replaced.

Looking at power specs for various 2.5" HDs, the Samsung appears OK, and at one site where users file reports, a gentleman put the same drive in a Wallstreet. The naming of HDs is changing with the introduction of serial ATA (SATA) drives. The old IDE/ATA is now back to its original parallel ATA (PATA). Also, the ATA100 (a.k.a. ATA-6) is backwards compatible with the older protocols.

However, if you have a power adapter that is failing to deliver its rated voltage, this might present a problem with an HD that requires more power than older drives. A recent thread had this issue in regards to charging a battery. Open your System Profiler > Power and see if the power adapter is reporting 45-50w; the user with the bad adapter said his was reporting only 26w.

I am also concerned about your missing memory; it is odd that the System Profiler and About This Mac don't agree. If one module is bad, Panther can still probably run with only 64MB (Jaguar can) but it would be extremely slow plus it may affect the integrity of the data. You also mentioned getting a beep and flashing sleep light during one startup; this may have been the POST reporting bad RAM.
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=58442

To the best of my knowledge, there should be no material on the top of the square plate (part of the heat exchanger) that is screwed to the microprocessor. I am sure you can buy a replacement thermal transfer pad but I would have to track it down.
http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/6.0.0.html

If you wish to try cloning your OSX to the new HD, this is the procedure I would follow, but again, I am concerned about your memory.

1. Leave the old HD in the powerbook and make sure the partition that has your working 10.3.9 (I assume it also has MacOS 9...that's OK) is sound by restarting in Safe Boot (hold shift key down during startup). This is what a Safe Boot does:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107392

2. Make sure your Carbon Copy Cloner is installed on the partition you wish to clone.
http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/13260

3. Place your new HD in the FireWire enclosure and use its power brick.

4. After restarting your Pismo normally, go to Utilities folder > Disk Utility > select the FireWire HD > then select Erase > select MacOS Extended > name the HD > check the option to install the MacOS 9 HD driver (you need this to boot into 9.x). If you wish to partition, do so at this point before erasing (intializing).

5. Now launch CCC > select your source + destination > select Preferences > select "make bootable"...leave everything else unchecked. You want all items to be copied...everything from the source.

6. Start cloning; this takes a long time anyway but if you only have 64MB that is usable, who knows how long.

7. Once cloning is complete, restart while pressing the option key > select the newly cloned HD > make sure it boots and runs properly.

8. Now unpower everything and swap drives.

This company is a good vendor; here are links to batteries and memory:
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/iBooks-PowerBooks/G3-Pismo/
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/powerbook/battery/g3-pismo/

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Answer 9

May 29, 2006 11:11 AM in response to jpl

Well after cloning and restoring back to the drive, Carbon Copy cloner appears to have repaired the drive and made it bootable, well I am only running the drive from a self-powered Firewire drive so far, if it fails to boot when I put the drive in, I'll know the PSU is not up to scratch. My second, which cost me AUD$200 from Apple, when the first (yo-yo) really should have been recalled - both the mains voltage and low voltage cables are dangerous as they were originally supplied, prone to corrosion and shorting internally, and the newer one is pretty delicate too - I've been very careful with it, but the LV cord nearest the plug is looking kinked and close to failing.

I am considering buying an aftermarket/3rd party battery, PRAM (it's the original, it must be time) and charger, I could even get a G4 upgrade processor, however, on the other hand, I could buy a new Powerbook for just over a thousand dollars, it'd be a base model but still beat this Pismo hands-down for speed. Or I could vote with my feet, there have been a number of issues with my Pismo I haven't been happy about, but I've had no luck in getting them actioned.

Thanks JPL, I will test the HD back in the powerbook and post a wrap-up, but there's a crack in the bottom case I want to hit with JB weld glue (awesome stuff) - does this make my Pismo sound as it it's been in the wars? I suppose it has, but it basically carries my life for the past six years...

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Answer 10

May 29, 2006 11:43 AM in response to PETER BRADSTOCK

I forgot to mention, when I go into system profiler (OSx.3.9) even if I select the enhanced/advanced view, I don't get an option to view power, or the power adapter. I wonder if that's because I'm not running with a battery?

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Answer 11

May 29, 2006 12:31 PM in response to PETER BRADSTOCK

Ok I think I'm at the bottom - or at least how this sordid tale began, there is indeed two system folders, one is actually in a folder called "original items" in the root of the OSX drive, and it's almost two years old - it has a 'system' and 'desktop' folder in it - I wonder if it's from an OS update, maybe something to do with journalling?

I wonder if it even goes back to Clean Install Assistant, which would have been maybe when I was still running OS9, I don't think there's an OSX version - that might explain why I kept booting into OS9.

What a pain, ah well, it does seem to be working better....as far as better on this thing goes, did I mention my display has the fuzzy issue discussed by some?

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Answer 12

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

May 29, 2006 12:54 PM in response to PETER BRADSTOCK

Peter,

You have quite a battle-hardened Pismo on your hands which also has a few disabilities. I don't think I would spend the dollars on a G4 upgrade, especially with your particular Pismo.

As you well know, you can buy a bottom-of-the-line MacBook here in the U.S, at least from Amazon.com via MacInTouch for $999. It has to be the most powerful and full-featured consumer laptop ever offered; I would buy one tomorrow.
http://www.macintouch.com/

You can always use your FireWire HD as a backup; I clone my working OSX to an external FW HD for just that purpose. Something goes wrong...just clone back to the powerbook.

Perform a Get Info on the "System" you found; it could be the System file (suitcase) in OS9 or it could be the System (a folder) for OSX. If you ever performed an Archive & Install for OSX or a Clean Install for OS9, one of those would leave behind a folder called Previous System or some such name. In any case, you can trash it.

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Answer 13

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

May 29, 2006 1:37 PM in response to PETER BRADSTOCK

Peter,

I don't think 10.3.9 or earlier have "Power" (among others) in the System Profiler; unfortunately I no longer have a running 10.3.x so I could check.

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Answer 14

May 30, 2006 9:08 AM in response to jpl

Thanks for your help, JPL, yes I agree it's a question of diminishing returns, the price of the processor upgrades (new) has always seemed borderline to me, however, if you're locked into a piece of hardware like I was with my Avid system - I wasn't going to upgrade it - I got a used Sonnet G3 upgrade which I put in my 9600/300 which ran well...

That's why I think OSX.3.9 is where this puter will stay, even if I could run .4 on it, I imagine it'll run even slower....

I will take Norton's off, I mostly bought it for Speed disk, but the OS optimises whenever you run an update, doesn't it, so it's not really necessary.

I would like to run on batteries again, so I'm tempted to at least buy a new battery - but then may as well replace the PRAM battery and get a new charger...then I wonder if I may as well spend another $700 or so and get the whole new thing, as you say.

The JB weld has hardened so I have a solid case again, albeit with a gray stripe on the bottom - iTunes is running, and the new hd is back in the case and running well - I think you're right about the other system folder being from an upgrade - it definitely is an OSX one as it refers to "Classic" and it's a two-year old folder, so out it goes.

So it seems operator error or ignorance was at least in part to blame - but I did find booting into Classic yesterday, it was behaving in a manner most flakey....but I also have a dedicated OS9 partition so I can probably get by with that, in the meantime.

So "power" is an OSX.4 thing? Doesn't surprise me, and I'd be surprised if my old yo-yo is even capable of giving a software tool a meaningful reading on power usage - or is it done internally? That'd be an impressive example of engineering in hindsight....not sure how you can meaningfully measure current usage without shunts, meters etc, or is that a function of switchmode power supplies?

So anyway, so far, problem is solved...thanks.

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Answer 15

jpl

Level 7

28,285 points

May 30, 2006 10:05 AM in response to PETER BRADSTOCK

Peter,

Classic can be a problem running under OSX and there are usually two reasons:

- Conflicts with extensions and control panels that do not exist when booted to 9.2.x. Ideally you will have two sets: (1) a "Classic" extension set that runs under Classic; (2) your normal extension set when booted to 9.2.x. You can create two extension sets in the 9.x Extensions Manager either when booted to 9.2.x or when booted to OSX. In OSX, open the Classic pane in System Preferences, then Advanced. Whatever extension set is chosen, it will be active in both environments so you will have to switch depending on how you are running 9.2.x.

I have set my Classic NOT to launch at startup of OSX; I don't want it using up resources unless I need it. Here is an article describing the control panels and extensions that are not needed under Classic:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=107135

You can in fact disable many more items than those listed to further reduce conflicts. Read Bob Levitus's post here for even more items and suggestions:
http://forums.osxfaq.com/viewtopic.php?topic=363&forum=100

If your application fails to launch because you turned off a necessary extension, you should get a dialogue box telling you what is missing.

- The other problem is that some 8.x/9.x applications just do not run well or at all under Classic.

Other points:

- You don't need an optimizer for OSX since it automatically optimizes files 20MB or smaller.

- I don't believe you can properly measure power adapter output without a load...at least that is what Apple says.

- You may not need a new rechargeable backup battery; please read this article:
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=30580

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