Pondini

Q: UPDATED: Serious Time Machine bug on Mountain Lion

This is continued and summarized from a previous thread, Serious Time Machine bug on Mountain Lion, which has grown rather large and unwieldy (and which I marked Solved in error).  There are a few other threads that touch on it as well.

 

 

Some of us have seen a few cases of a pretty nasty problem with Time Machine backups on Mountain Lion.  It doesn't seem to affect a lot of users, but those who have it, don't know it.  It seems to have started at different times for different users, some as long ago as December, 2012.

 

The backups cannot not be used to do a full system restore from recent backups -- they don't appear on the selection screen that shows only "complete" backups.  Plus, they're not recognized as backups by Setup Assistant or Migration Assistant.  They don't appear on the Select the Source or Select Your System windows at all.  But your user data is fine via the Time Machine browser (the "Star Wars" display).

 

What's happening is, the top-level Applications, Library, System and (hidden) private folders are being excluded by some process (not the user, and the exclusions do not appear on the Time Machine Preferences window).  But all backups complete normally, and Verify Backups from the Time Machine menubar on network backups, and Verify Disk or Repair Disk via Disk Utility, don't show a problem  (because what's there is intact; those processes can't tell that what's missing isn't supposed to be missing.)

 

In addition, we've seen a few threads where the problem is intermittent -- backups are unexpectedly large, sometimes often, sometimes less so, intermittently.  In those cases, the folders are backed up, then skipped, then backed-up again, then skipped, etc.  Since they appear to be "new" when backed-up again, they're backed-up in full, making backups of 15 GB or more.

 

 

See #D10 in Time Machine - Troubleshooting for an easy way to tell if you're affected, and a fix.


 

However, as we have no clue as to the cause yet, we need to be sure Apple knows about this, in detail, while it's happening, so I'm asking for some folks who are having these problems, and are fairly comfortable with the Finder at least, and following directions to do other things you may not be so familiar with, to help us collect information and contact Apple before running the fix in the link above (as that will destroy some of the evidence).

 

We're especially interested in folks who are covered by AppleCare, as you can call them for free and get some fairly quick attention.  We can supply some "ammunition" for when you call them (since I haven't had this problem, and don't know how to reproduce it, I can't report it myself). 

 

 

If you're having this problem and just want to run the fix, by all means do so (and check it periodically), but please don't post back with just a "me, too" post, unless you have something significant to add -- this thread may get long and those won't really help.

 

But if you're having a different problem, please do not respond to this thread.  Start a new one, instead.  If you're not sure how to do that, please go to the main Apple Support Communities page;  some Tutorials are listed at the right.  They'll show you how to get started.

Posted on Jun 24, 2013 6:55 AM

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Q: UPDATED: Serious Time Machine bug on Mountain Lion

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  • by Pondini,

    Pondini Pondini Aug 6, 2013 5:38 PM in response to Vince Egan
    Level 8 (38,747 points)
    Aug 6, 2013 5:38 PM in response to Vince Egan

    Vince Egan wrote:

    . . .

    I have attached the requested files I think. Also some screen shots showing the files not backed up and I am hopeful of one that shows the new back up with system folders etc.

    Sorry, but you can't attach things here.  You can post small images like screenshots (via the Camera icon in the toolbar of the edit window); or copy small files and post them directly; or post files elsewhere and put a link here.  But posting here won't help much -- they need to go to Apple.

     

     

    I will do my best to follow the Report bugs to Apple directions.

    Great!. You'll need the output of the tmdiagnose command, as long as it was run before the fix.

     

    Don't hesitate to post back if you need more info, and let us know how you contacted Apple -- if via AppleCare/Support, or filing a Bug Report.  If you don't mind, please send me the AppleCare "Case Number" or Bug Report number to the address on my Contact page, and be sure I know to associate it with you.

     

     

    I don't know how many updates have been released since January but it is obviously only an iMac Problem.

    No, it's not.  It has affected all sorts of Macs, starting at least as far back as November.  It seems to be related to use of some 3rd-party app(s), but we don't know that for sure, much less which one(s).

  • by tomhart9,

    tomhart9 tomhart9 Aug 16, 2013 7:46 AM in response to Pondini
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 7:46 AM in response to Pondini

    Hi guys,

     

    I'm having the same issue with TM not backing up the library, system and applications folders.

    Here's where it gets fun, I only discovered this issue when I went to restore my backup after doing a clean reinstall of mountain lion...

    When I went to restore my files after obviously it didn't find any recent backups.

    Oh and it gets better, my backup drive recently failed and got replaced (after a few angry emails) so the only working backups I have are post clean install. Yay!

     

    I want to see if I'm any use to you guys in solving this, I'm not particularly familiar with a lot of the things you are talking about to be honest but I'm sure I can follow any instructions!

     

    Also whilst all my personal/important files are all backed up should I go ahead and download all the apps I lost and get all my settings in order?

  • by Pondini,

    Pondini Pondini Aug 16, 2013 8:11 AM in response to tomhart9
    Level 8 (38,747 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 8:11 AM in response to tomhart9

    tomhart9 wrote:

    . . .

    Also whilst all my personal/important files are all backed up should I go ahead and download all the apps I lost and get all my settings in order?

    It sounds like you have nothing left from before the clean install, so there's no evidence, either. 

     

    If so, yes, repair your system as well as you can.  You might also want to start making "secondary" backups (always prudent).  See Time Machine - Frequently Asked Question #27 for more info.

     

     

    However, you should periodically check your Time Machine backups per #D10 in Time Machine - Troubleshooting.  If you find the problem has reocurred, then contact me, either by posting here or via the Contact page on my website (link on every page).  To simplify reporting options, please specify what country you're in;  whether your Mac is under 90 days old or covered by the extra-cost AppleCare 3-year hardware warranty and free phone support;  and if you're familiar with the Terminal app.

  • by luxuryliner67,

    luxuryliner67 luxuryliner67 Aug 16, 2013 8:14 AM in response to Pondini
    Level 2 (220 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 8:14 AM in response to Pondini

    Sadly going back to Carbon Copy Cloner...

  • by Pondini,

    Pondini Pondini Aug 16, 2013 8:17 AM in response to luxuryliner67
    Level 8 (38,747 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 8:17 AM in response to luxuryliner67

    luxuryliner67 wrote:

     

    Sadly going back to Carbon Copy Cloner...

    A great product, with great support (better than Apple's, I hate to say).  I use it too, and recommend it highly.

     

    But it has it's limitations and drawbacks, and the occasional bug, too (just like any app).  That's why many of us recommend (at least) two separate, independent backups, in (at least) two different places, made with (at least) two different apps.

     

    My philosophy about backups (learned the hard way, of course), is:  Paranoia is prudent!

  • by Vince Egan,

    Vince Egan Vince Egan Aug 16, 2013 8:43 AM in response to luxuryliner67
    Level 1 (25 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 8:43 AM in response to luxuryliner67

    SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Yeah Pondini the Great.

     

    The entire hd was backed up. I have not tried ot do a restore but the TM shows the requisite files.

     

    If you follow the steps outlined in this thread and reset the TM etc AND gather the tmdiag files to be sent ot aplle you can make the TM backup correctly. It took a few hours, slow learner, but Pondini's steps does in fact "fix" the Apple bug. I didn't do the tmdiag step so sadly cannot send to apple.

    I also use a weekly, I know not enough, seperate portable drive "G Drive" with SuperDuper giving me the time machine AND an additional bootable external drive. I don't know how long it took Pondini to gather this information but it does work. Paranoia is prudent is a good thought!!!!

  • by Pondini,

    Pondini Pondini Aug 16, 2013 8:48 AM in response to Vince Egan
    Level 8 (38,747 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 8:48 AM in response to Vince Egan

    Vince Egan wrote:

     

    SUCCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Yeah Pondini the Great.

    Yay! 

     

    I also use a weekly, I know not enough, seperate portable drive "G Drive" with SuperDupergiving me the time machine AND an additional bootable external drive.

    Ah, good.    That sure limits the possible losses.  Just be sure to check your TM backups, and do the SD backups, regularly.

  • by tomhart9,

    tomhart9 tomhart9 Aug 16, 2013 8:51 AM in response to Pondini
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 8:51 AM in response to Pondini

    RE:Pondini

     

    I didn't make it obvious but I have a few backups from before the clean install that I did right when i got my hard drive back and rigth before I did the clean install.

    So if there's anything from them that could help I'll do my best to help you out!

     

    I'll have a look at those links thank you!

     

    Oh and I'm in the UK my MBP is not under 90 days and I don't have the Apple Care. I've used Terminal with a few basic one line commands but nothing too serious.

  • by Pondini,

    Pondini Pondini Aug 16, 2013 8:59 AM in response to tomhart9
    Level 8 (38,747 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 8:59 AM in response to tomhart9

    tomhart9 wrote:

    . . .

    I didn't make it obvious but I have a few backups from before the clean install that I did right when i got my hard drive back and rigth before I did the clean install.

    So if there's anything from them that could help I'll do my best to help you out!

    If you'd like, see if you can restore the plist file to an alternate location, such as your Desktop, and send it to me at the address on my Contact page.  (See Time Machine - Frequently Asked Question #16 if you're not sure how to do that). 

     

    It's in the top-level /Library folder:

     

    /Library/Preferences/com.apple.TimeMachine.plist

     

    If your e-mail address isn't clear, be sure to identify yourself so I know it's you.

     

    Oh and I'm in the UK my MBP is not under 90 days and I don't have the Apple Care. I've used Terminal with a few basic one line commands but nothing too serious.

    Since all the other evidence is gone, it wouldn't help.  Thanks anyway.

  • by tomhart9,

    tomhart9 tomhart9 Aug 16, 2013 9:13 AM in response to Pondini
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 9:13 AM in response to Pondini

    I cant get the plist from before the install, only from after on the new clean user without the backup issues, I assume this isn't useful?

  • by Pondini,

    Pondini Pondini Aug 16, 2013 9:14 AM in response to tomhart9
    Level 8 (38,747 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 9:14 AM in response to tomhart9

    If you have complete backups from before the clean install, that should be there.

     

    But if not, it's no great loss -- thanks anyway.

  • by tomhart9,

    tomhart9 tomhart9 Aug 16, 2013 9:18 AM in response to Pondini
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 9:18 AM in response to Pondini

    Nope I'm afraid not, I'll try to keep up with the thread and let you know if anything changes. Thanks for the help and info you've given me.

  • by luxuryliner67,

    luxuryliner67 luxuryliner67 Aug 16, 2013 10:19 AM in response to Pondini
    Level 2 (220 points)
    Aug 16, 2013 10:19 AM in response to Pondini

    To be more exhaustive I have both backups: I started in the years with CCC, then did also with TM and had succcess in recovery from it once. But since it's out I've been reading about a lot of bugs and this didn't make me happy. Watching inside TM's backup a few days ago a saw a strange things: it was just my impression but it looked something was wrong.

    Then I'm going forward with both. CCC drawbacks? Not so important...

    Cheers

    Simon

  • by rxbudp,

    rxbudp rxbudp Aug 24, 2013 9:21 AM in response to Pondini
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Aug 24, 2013 9:21 AM in response to Pondini

    I have had Case # 443758601 open with Apple Support since May 15th and still no results or any indication of a fix in sight.  My AppleCare Senior Advisor seems to be making contact with the software engineers (so he says) but they don't seem to have any urgent desire to address and fix the issue.  I received notification from him on May 22nd that it would be fixed with the next software update.  The update came out in mid june, version 10.8.4 and it didn't fix the problem.  I did send several files to Apple after they had me run some diagnostic programs that they provided but that was way back in May and they haven't asked for anything since then.  My last inquiry to the advisor was on Aug 11th and he supposedily resubmitted my case again to the engineers.  There response was "There are still no further updates, just be sure to keep your software up to date".  What a sad excuse for an update to a case that has been open for almost 5 months.  They just don't seem to care.  I am tempted to just open an new case number and see if they assign a new advisor and start from scratch.

  • by Pondini,

    Pondini Pondini Aug 24, 2013 10:02 AM in response to rxbudp
    Level 8 (38,747 points)
    Aug 24, 2013 10:02 AM in response to rxbudp

    rxbudp wrote:

     

    I have had Case # 443758601 open with Apple Support since May 15th and still no results or any indication of a fix in sight. 

    . . .

    My last inquiry to the advisor was on Aug 11th and he supposedily resubmitted my case again to the engineers. 

    Thanks very much for the update. 

     

    PLEASE follow up, and ask, beg, plead, for them to see this page:  http://pondini.org/TM/D10.html, and to click the link at the bottom of the yellow box there.  Ask for escalation if necessary.

     

    In the second link is a summary of what we've figured out so far, with some explanations, clues, and theories;  and at the end, links to several other threads here (including this one) illustrating that this is not an isolated incident.  I doubt it's enough to determine exactly what happened, as this seems to be a very strange one, but ought to provide some direction.

     

    If they'll listen (?), also tell them that, while I haven't figured out how to "trigger" the problem myself, so can't report it, I do have evidence from several users (the affected plists), a Time Machine Diagnostic package from one, and three Apple Bug Report numbers filed by users who weren't covered by AppleCare.  I'd be very willing to discuss this with them, by e-mail, phone, carrier pigeon, or whatever.

     

    Very frustrating! 

     

    Keep us posted, and thanks again.

     

    Message was edited by: Pondini

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