Adding AirPort Time Capsule to an existing network

If I'm right, please confirm, if I cannot connect de TC to the modem/router (dlink) via an ethernet cable, it is impossible to have the TC redirecting/extending the signal? It woud be a client of the network and I could only use it for the "Time Capsule" utility and never as a repeater/bridge of some sort?

Thanks guys!

You are confirmed.. that is an affirmative.. !!

The TC is not able to extend wireless of a non-apple wireless router.. the system used is proprietary one.

It becomes a dumb client when you connect to the network by wireless.. I mean really dumb. You lose ethernet completely.. you lose wireless except for connection to the network.

The solution is use an apple router plugged into the dlink.. even a second hand one would be fine.. look for early N or late Gen5 N they go between $40-80.. and extend wireless from that.

Or use EOP adapters.. Bob will point out these are not transparent.. Apple use protocols that do not necessarily pass unhindered. And I cannot say this brand works well and this one not.. as I run ethernet everywhere I need it.. EOP is a stop gap but it can help.

Thanks a lot LaPastenague :-)

There is one odd ball..

The express does have the ability to work as a wireless bridge.. to a non-apple router.

You can then plug an express into the TC.. and that ends up the same thing as plugging the express into the dlink by ethernet and extending wireless from it.. almost but not quite.. the wireless extend is better..

Apple would never do such things to force you to buy more of their products.. it is merely a strange coincidence that bridge is not possible in the Extreme or TC. .. !! 😕

To anyone on this thread: is it possible to use the Time Capsule as a "repeater/relay/bridge" for an existing wireless network? In other words, the TC would log in to the existing network and then serve as a new/2nd base station on the same network, thus allowing the original network to be extended in range/geographically. This would help with better speeds for those devices that support it and to facilitate connection for "weak" wifi reception devices like iPads.

Many thanks!

gruberg wrote:

To anyone on this thread: is it possible to use the Time Capsule as a "repeater/relay/bridge" for an existing wireless network?

If the existing network is apple.. yes.. if it is not apple. no.

The apple extend wireless is propriety .. you cannot mix it with other brands. So you need to have at least one apple router plugged by ethernet into the main router.. to create a wireless network.. so another apple router can extend it.

Relay is finished.. That was in the G products.. it is no longer available. All connections must be made hub and spoke style..

If you dig really deep at least on the older N products there is a WDS mode.. there is some faint possibility this could work with other brands.. but you will reduce the network to G wireless. It is not worth the pain of bothering.

If you want to extend your network.. use ethernet.. place an ethernet outlet somewhere nearer where you need the signal and plug an apple router in bridge at that point and create a roaming network. That is the only method that works 100% and is far faster and far more reliable.

You can substitute EOP adapters (homeplug) in some cases with the understanding they are a poor cousin to real ethernet. And do not work in every case. (know the store return policy before you buy).

Or use identical wireless products to what you already have and set up WDS if that is allowed. WDS is not a proper standard.. so there is no way to guarantee it will work. Universal repeaters use a different method which has network issues.. I would advise against it.. The only satisfactory wireless repeater system is WDS or a version thereof like Apple's extend wireless.. but you always need to stick to one manufacturer.

Thanks, LaPastenague. Actually, this should work for me, since I have two Apple time capsules (one old, flat 1TB; one new, tall 3TB). If I've understood you correctly, it's merely a question of plugging one in to my router, setting up a new wireless network and then extending it with the other one. Three further questions, if you'll permit:

1. Which should I plug in, which use to extend? Bearing in mind the new one is faster (5Ghz), I should presumably plug it into the router--unless the old TC would be unable to receive and therefore extend the 5Ghz signal? If such a limitation required me to plug the old one into the router, wouldn't making the new one the "slave" to a slower TC slow it down as well? Presumably the TC's will automatically select the required type of network (802.1g, n, etc).

2. Would I then have all my Apple devices ignore the original network being produced by the non-Apple router? Presumably having three units broadcasting two different networks won't itself create any problems, or should I try to turn off the original wifi network, leaving only the ethernet connection to the first TC and using only the Apple wifi network for all devices?

3. Ideally, I'd like to use the old TC more like an external drive to store common information for the various Apple devices (eg. music, pictures) that is too big for each to hold itself. Due to its greater capacity, I'd like to use the new TC as a backup for everything else. Any comment/suggestions? Eg. how could this be facilitated/automated?

Your advice is much appreciated. Again, many thanks!

gruberg wrote:

1. Which should I plug in, which use to extend? Bearing in mind the new one is faster (5Ghz), I should presumably plug it into the router--unless the old TC would be unable to receive and therefore extend the 5Ghz signal? If such a limitation required me to plug the old one into the router, wouldn't making the new one the "slave" to a slower TC slow it down as well? Presumably the TC's will automatically select the required type of network (802.1g, n, etc).

Yes, plug the new one into the router.. Hopefully it will get a lot better range anyway.

Any model TC can extend 5ghz.. the Gen1 though is limited to one band.. so it will work on 2.4ghz or 5ghz.. one or the other but not both. Since Gen2 they are simultaneous dual band.. Check the model.

Gen 1 A1254

Gen 2 A1302

Gen 3 A1355

All of the above come with 1TB hard disk options.

Note. Gen1 and Gen2 are now on their last legs.. and even the Gen 3 could well have seen out its golden years and now approaching decrepitude.

2. Would I then have all my Apple devices ignore the original network being produced by the non-Apple router? Presumably having three units broadcasting two different networks won't itself create any problems, or should I try to turn off the original wifi network, leaving only the ethernet connection to the first TC and using only the Apple wifi network for all devices?

It is totally up to you.. there is no guest network if you bridge the TC.. for some reason lots of people want to use guest network.. if that is the case simply use the original wifi modem for that.

But you can also setup roaming network if you don't want dual networks.

Just put the Apple router to the same wireless name.. ie SSID as the wifi router and same security and password.

You can control channels or leave it to auto sort itself out. I am a bit of a control freak and prefer to control. In most cases auto is ok.. except when it isn't.

Or you can shut off the wifi in the modem.. really any option you pick is up to you.. and there is little to choose between them.. best is what works for you.

3. Ideally, I'd like to use the old TC more like an external drive to store common information for the various Apple devices (eg. music, pictures) that is too big for each to hold itself. Due to its greater capacity, I'd like to use the new TC as a backup for everything else. Any comment/suggestions? Eg. how could this be facilitated/automated?

Your advice is much appreciated. Again, many thanks!

Worried look now comes over my face..

This is exactly NOT what the TC is designed or good for.

Music = iTunes

Pictures = iPhoto

Then my comment is network handling of these is not great. TC is designed for data.. TM that is not time critical. It spins up slow and spins down quick .. and you have no control over spin. Well not directly.. you can fix up the disk to not spin down.. more below.

And the TC lacks one crucial element as you are trying to use it as a NAS.. it has no backup.. it is a backup target for TM on a computer.. but cannot back itself up.. nor can TM on a computer backup network drive.

Especially on an old TC you could set up all this.. copy all your files across.. and have it die a week later.

It is fine if it is share.. ie merely a copy.. but copy of itunes is not so easy.. and using iphoto on network drive can lead to corruption of the library.

If you mean raw downloads.. that is different.. but if you mean Apple libraries.. think very hard.

Speed is the next issue.

Any device linking to the old TC and backing up to the new TC.. will have fairly slow backup.. double hop wireless at a min halving the speed. This might work fine if TM is small and changes are minimal on the computer but be aware.. you pay a cost for extending wireless.

Think hard about the lifespan of a gen1 or gen2.. many will need a power supply update very soon and it might simply not be worth it.

TC repair info.

https://sites.google.com/site/lapastenague/a-deconstruction-of-routers-and-modem s/apple-time-capsule-repair

Spin of the TC disk can be altered on the disk. But you would need to remove it and alter setting on the disk or replace the disk with one that is not under TC control.

LaPastenague, I suspected this would be your reply to the third question--I have read your earlier posts. :-)

Clearly this setup wouldn't give automatic (hourly) backups, but since I only back up manually by ethernet and am happy to take the risk in between backups, I just thought if I had the spare TC and am using it as a network repeater, I might as well use it for data storage as well....

However, if I were to follow your advice, it sounds like I could still use the TC to store the "raw" music (and photo?) data, but keep the actual iTunes and iPhoto files on my MacBook Pro (MBP). How would this work in practice? I've recently compiled over 500GB of music, so I'm not really sure there's much of an alternative to keeping the raw data externally. Could an iTunes Library on my MBP even process/access such a large library if it's held externally?

In these days of iCloud (which I'm not really comfortable with), isn't there a way of setting up something more like a private Cloud at home for all of our Apple devices? And if the (old) TC is not the right place for that, what set up would you recommend instead? Based on your earlier comments, I'd try an external USB drive (Toshiba or other) plugged into the MBP (or one of the TCs)?

Curious what you'd suggest for shared storage that all machines in our home can draw on (including iPad, iPod, iPhone etc.) and that works with iTunes, iPhoto or even iMovie libraries.

Thanks again!

PS: the old TC is 2nd Gen (A1302), therefore 2.4/5Ghz dual band should not be a problem.

gruberg wrote:

LaPastenague, I suspected this would be your reply to the third question--I have read your earlier posts. :-)

Well at least I am consistent then.

If you look through posts from people who know the product.. most of us do not recommend it for NAS or server duties.

What is the right product.. ?? A real NAS.. synology or QNAP.. multiple disks.. use at least 3 for the best combo of speed and data protection. As well as another drive for USB plugged into it for backup.. Real NAS can back themselves up.

Or.. a Media computer.. a mini.. will do fine and not necessarily new.. couple of years old, but you need more capacity than a mini can easily store on internal disk.. which are slow 2.5" type anyway. USB3 in latest mini is a lot better than USB2. Thunderbolt is still overpriced. FW800 is a good interface but dead.. it will be gone completely soon.

So if you buy a mini 2nd hand.. I would be doing a hack job on it.. extend out sata and put a 3TB fast disk on it. How is that for crazy.. then use a 3TB USB 2 drive to back it up. Speed won't matter for the backup.

https://katastrophos.net/andre/blog/2006/11/02/the-mac-mini-external-sata-hack/ (older but the right idea).

Sata has hugely better throughput though for the main files. And you are effectively making itunes server.. although Apple does not ever use it as that.

It is a lot more outlay and if you want cheap you have to spend it in time .. You get it fast, cheap, good.. pick 2 out of the three.. (A general law of the universe in there). eg

Fast and Cheap.. not good..

Cheap and Good.. not fast..

Fast and good, not cheap.

See http://www.sixside.com/fast_good_cheap.asp

You very seldom crack all three.

Gen 2 TC could die tomorrow. They do have a nasty tendency to go and take everything with them.. and speed of the 5ghz is not going to be as good as later generation which used 450mbps cards.

NAS are very popular nowadays btw because they do offer a great combo of safe storage.. loads of capacity.. automated backups and a lot of useful protocols.. there is a craze at the moment for building HP mini server NAS.. if you really want a roll your own. But it is much neater for Apple world to stick with a Mac for "serving".

Apple so far has not put a product out that fulfills your need.

Dear LaPastenague,

I'm not sure this is a topic with which you're also familiar, but perhaps you could nonetheless answer, or at least refer me in the right direction.

I just upgraded my MPB from 10.6.8 to 10.8.5 and also (finder) copied my backup/sparsebundle from my old TC to my new one (XXX). Finally, I also manually changed the name of the backup file to match the new name of the MBP (YYY)--here I'm assuming it searches for the sparsebundle that matches the name of the machine it's being asked to backup. At first the time machine wouldn't mount properly, but I've managed to coax it to the point that it will even try to layer a new backup onto the old ones, but after a long time "looking for backup disk", comes back with the message:

Time Machine couldn't complete the backup to "XXX". The backup disk image "/Volumes/Data-1/YYY.sparsebundle" could not be accessed (error -1),

perhaps unsruprisingly, because it also claims the oldest backup is "None". When I try entering the time machine, it eventually gives up with the following error message:

The operation can't be completed. An unexpected error (code -6584) occured.

Similarly, when I try opening the file in the finder, I get the message:

The disk image couldn't be opened. Reason: no mountable file system.

Interestingly, the finder seems to have no problem reading other contents of the new TC and has actually altered the time stamp in the process of the above and renamed the backup file so that the suffix ".sparsebundle" no longer appears in the finder.

Is there some sort of repair that you'd recommend I attempt, or should I just reverse what I've done above, at least (1) the renaming of the backup file, or (2) the finder copy from one TC (2nd Gen, 1TB) to the next (4th Gen, 3TB)? The latter I'd like to try doing by another means if there's one you can recommend; obviously, I'd like to avoid reverting to 10.6.8 if possible.

Many thanks in advance for your advice/suggestions where to look!

I just upgraded my MPB from 10.6.8 to 10.8.5 and also (finder) copied my backup/sparsebundle from my old TC to my new one (XXX). Finally, I also manually changed the name of the backup file to match the new name of the MBP (YYY)--here I'm assuming it searches for the sparsebundle that matches the name of the machine it's being asked to backup.

The copying of sparsebundle is always fraught with danger.

why do all this .. ?? Just start a new clean TM backup. Keep the old backup on the old TC for use if you need it. If you already wiped the old TC.. the simple fact is the copy might not be good.

The way the computer recognises the right backup is using a UUID from the hard disk.. this is not likely to have changed and so the renaming was not necessary.

Let me give you some references to our TM genius.. pondini the magnificent.

http://pondini.org/TM/Works.html

That is a good start to understand the wonders of TM.

Now for your particular problems.

Time Machine couldn't complete the backup to "XXX". The backup disk image "/Volumes/Data-1/YYY.sparsebundle" could not be accessed (error -1),

C17.. http://pondini.org/TM/Troubleshooting.html

The operation can't be completed. An unexpected error (code -6584) occured.

This is typically caused by corrupted backup. It is I suspect part of the copying.

A5.

Also this is a major error that turns up from time to time and often ends up being unrepairable.. just delete it and start over.

Look for Pondini's comments in this thread.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3123920?tstart=0

I've done above, at least (1) the renaming of the backup file, or (2) the finder copy from one TC (2nd Gen, 1TB) to the next (4th Gen, 3TB)?

Wipe and start over.. I think you corrupted the Sparsebundle copying it. Do not change its name or anything.. Leave TM to find it.. or reconnect to it.

Look at B5 and B6 about connecting back to old backups. Still the same site.

For info on copying.. it should be done over ethernet for everything.. no wireless at all.

Transfer TM backups..

Apple doco. http://support.apple.com/kb/ht5097

Pondini doco http://pondini.org/TM/18.html

How I would do it..

1. Archive off the old TM backup.. Use the pondini method of actually moving the sparsebundle to a USB drive. It will become a local backup instead of stored in sparsbundle. This is going to make it far easier to recover files in the future if that is needed.

2. Wipe the old TC and use it for whatever.

3. Do a clean fresh TM backup of the MBP.. Forget trying to keep TM running from since forever.. the attempt to do this could well make the TM corrupt and impossible to restore anyway.

You have the old backups now safely on the USB disk.. from 1. above.. store it in a draw for 6months.. if you haven't used it after that time.. you won't.. wipe it or forget it.

OK, will do ad let you know how I get on. Thanks!

PS: the reason I hadn't deleted the old sparse bundles yet was because I wanted to make sure I could do a successful new backup before deleting them. The problem is the TC tries automatically to mount and overwrite/amend the old backups rather than create a new one, but fails in the process and thus does neither. There seems little point in trying to backup the sparsebundle anywhere since, as I'm learning, this is fraught with difficulties. I'm probably just as well off taking a punt and deleting them in the hope the next backup then functions properly, ie mounts properly or just creates a new (series of) backups. Is the latter likely to happen?

Don't delete them on the old TC.. at least you do have a set of your personal files backed up in there and you can recover them most likely..

But delete the sparsebundle you copied to the new TC and start over.. the computer should then have no problem creating a new sparsebundle and proceeding with the backup.. use ethernet as this is a first backup and will take a long time.. turn off wireless in the computer to ensure the ethernet is only network connection.

Dear LaPastenague,

first of all, let me thank you for your invaluable contribution to the post. (two thumbs up!) I got lost in the post. my network consist of windows PC's and MAC desktops and Laptops. the network is wireless. We purchased a Time Capsule device and I connected the device to the router via an ethernet cable. (I believe I shouldn't be doing that) but upto now everything worked fine. Adding the device acctually increased the wifi range as well for some users (whic is a good thing) BUT (there is always a 'but') not some windows users complain that their outlook 360 does not get connected to the exhcnage server (cloud server) What do you recommend

Thanks in advance and appreciate very much for your assistance......

If you connected the TC in bridge to existing router it should not affect any connections.. on the other hand if you have a double NAT then yes you will have trouble.

Tell me what mode the TC is running in.. it might be better to begin your own thread.