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Importing miniDV files losslessly

Hi,


I have an old Sony TCR-TRV11 Camcorder that uses miniDV cassettes for recording video. I have recently imported all of them thorugh firewire 800 via iMovie '11 as .dv files into the iMovie Events folder. Is there a way to convert those .dv files losslessly into .mov? I have done research and learned that you can use MPEG Streamclip to do the conversion process, but I'm not sure what settings to use because I'm not really a pro at this stuff. Is there data loss when converting using software like MPEG streamclip? Is it better if I get Final Cut Express and import from the camcorder again, this time directly into the .mov container file format? And if I purchase a used copy of Final Cut Express, will it work on my computer? I just want to preserve all my old videos without losing any detail/information.


Thanks!

iMovie '11, OS X Mountain Lion (10.8.4)

Posted on Oct 3, 2013 3:04 PM

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Question marked as Best reply

Posted on Oct 3, 2013 5:33 PM

http://www.apple.com/au/finalcutpro/


Above is a free trial for the Apple NLE that is supported by your OS 10.8.4.

Give it a try.


I can confirm it will capture your DV files from miniDV tape.


FCE is no longer supported using Mountain Lion and while some users get it to work others have grief.


I'm not an iMovie user but I belieive that version of iMovie drops a field and would re-capture using either FCE or FCP X, whichever you choose to work with.

Also iMovie uses a multiplexed audio method while FCE/X uses discrete audio and video.


As mentioned the free trail trial of X would be my first option.


BTW: do you have a large external drive to act as a Scratch Disc?

This is wise when capturing large amounts of video files.


Al

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Question marked as Best reply

Oct 3, 2013 5:33 PM in response to Chief Tarun

http://www.apple.com/au/finalcutpro/


Above is a free trial for the Apple NLE that is supported by your OS 10.8.4.

Give it a try.


I can confirm it will capture your DV files from miniDV tape.


FCE is no longer supported using Mountain Lion and while some users get it to work others have grief.


I'm not an iMovie user but I belieive that version of iMovie drops a field and would re-capture using either FCE or FCP X, whichever you choose to work with.

Also iMovie uses a multiplexed audio method while FCE/X uses discrete audio and video.


As mentioned the free trail trial of X would be my first option.


BTW: do you have a large external drive to act as a Scratch Disc?

This is wise when capturing large amounts of video files.


Al

Oct 3, 2013 6:41 PM in response to Chief Tarun

The .dv files that you have from iMovie are identical to the data recorded on your miniDV tapes; there was no data loss when you captured your videos using iMovie.


The difference between .dv files and QuickTime DV .mov files is simply file structure. In .dv files the video & audio data are interleaved same as they are on your miniDV tapes. When you "convert" from .dv to QuickTime.mov (DV) all that happens is the video & audio data are separated from each other into parallel tracks. There is no change in the video or audio data itself: hence there is no loss of quality.


You can safely use MPEG Streamclip to convert .dv files to QuickTime .mov files as long as you maintain "Apple DV/DVCPRO NTSC" as the compression (in North America, anyway). This is something you select in the MPEG Streamclip export dialog screens. Again, there will be no re-compression or degradation of your video; all this process does is convert the internal file structure to QuickTime .mov.


Regarding iMovie dropping DV fields, that only happens in iMovie 09 & 11 when you export DV video from iMovie. iMovie captures DV just fine, there are no dropped fields in the captured .dv files. Karsten Schluter developed a workaround to preserve both DV fields in iMovie, the process is documented on his iMovie Output Project website.


Without knowing your intentions or your skillset, it's hard to say if iMovie 11 will suffice for your editing needs; in any event you should give it a try. If it doesn't meet your needs then I second Al's suggestion to try Final Cut Pro X. You are on Mt. Lion (10.8) and FCE was discontinued over 2 years ago.

Oct 9, 2013 5:41 AM in response to Chief Tarun

In FCE, a scratch disk is a disk (or more specifically, a folder on a disk) that you tell FCE to use as its "working area". FCE uses this to store captured clips, render files, thumbnails, various caches and autosave vault. It is also where FCE will save your FCE project files unless you specifically save them somewhere else.


The FCE scratch disk is not really intended for archiving purposes - you should use a totally separate external disk drive for backup & archiving.


You set the FCE scratch disk location in Final Cut Express > System Settings > Scratch Disk. When you specify the location, FCE creates a folder called Final Cut Express Documents which in turn contains folders called Capture Scratch, Render Files, Autosave Vault, etc.


Your FCE scratch disk can be any disk drive directly connected to your Mac (not a network drive). It must be formatted as Mac OS Extended or Mac OS Extended (Journaled). FireWire, Thunderbolt and SATA (or eSATA) are the preferred types of connections. Some users have successfully used an external USB drive as their FCE scratch disk but a USB connection is not advisable.

Oct 10, 2013 12:04 AM in response to MartinR

That's interesting, Martin.


I don't use iMovie 11 but had heard mention of dropped fields and incorrectly assumed it was referring to the import process.


However, on the occasions when I have removed fields, such as when producing photos from interlaced footage, the degradation has been so minimal as to be unnoticed.


Cutting down the resolution to half sounds a tremendous loss but in practice you have to look pretty close to notice it.

Oct 10, 2013 6:38 AM in response to Ian R. Brown

Hi Ian,


Single-field processing in iMovie 08/09/11 has been the subject of loads of debate, and many people absolutely believe iMovie 09/11 just destroys DV video. That is not actually the case. If you read the posts carefully the comparisons between iMovie 08/09/11 vs. iMovie 06/FCE invariably involve DV video clips that have been inserted into an iMovie project and exported (shared) from iMovie.


Single-field processing in iMovie comes into play when you insert a DV clip into an iMovie project, not when you capture clips from a camcorder. It's the iMovie editor that drops the fields, not iMovie capture. Tom Wolsky proved this rather definitively a couple of years ago with a direct capture comparison in iMovie 06 and iMovie 09/11. Some people still didn't believe him even though the actual video clips were there to view. So the debate rages on. Further, Karsten's iMovie Output Project works because the .dv clip files are complete; if the captured clips were already single field then Karsten's procedure wouldn't work.


iMovie's internal process of capturing DV video is identicall in all versions of iMovie. The captured clips themselves (the .dv files) are simply an exact copy of the recording on the camcorder's miniDV tapes as they play back during capture. DV capture in iMovie is really just a process of copying the recording from the tapes.


cheers,

Martin


ps. I recently had a very nice holiday in Sussex (specifically, Godalming), with a side trip to Northiam to visit Great Dixter. Image: an American driving a diesel, 5-speed manual Volkswagen Jetta on the left (wrong!) side of the road - starting on the A3 & M25, later on rural and village roads that were narrow to begin with and kept getting narrower the further I went. Add cars parked on one side, making the 2-way roads hardly 1-lane wide. Add a GPS that decided I should go "the most direct way" which really meant a 1-hour drive that actually took 4. Let's just say it was a creative route. I was sure glad there was a pub at the end of the trip!

Nov 24, 2013 10:23 AM in response to Joe Herth

There is no problem with FCP X as it imports and exports both fields of interlaced footage just like any pro editing software should.


I assume that iMovie loses a field (or deinterlaces) because it is primarily aimed at amateurs, the majority of whom simply export to YouTube which doesn't like interlaced footage .......... in fact pretty well anything that is interlaced will display unpleasant "jaggies" when played on the web.


P.S. There's nothing wrong with amateurs ........ I'm one.


Message was edited by: Ian R. Brown

Nov 24, 2013 11:53 PM in response to Joe Herth

Test what.......... that FCP X doesn't deinterlace video?


You don't need to ......... I've been using it since June 2011 and I am telling you.


However, if you have doubts about the accuracy of my statement you can download the free 30 day trial and test it for yourself.


http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/trial/


Import your video and then export it as a QT Masterfile.


Import the exported video back into FCP X and set the Viewer preferences to "Show both fields" whereupon you will see the interlacing lines in all their glory.


Nov 25, 2013 9:05 AM in response to Ian R. Brown

Sorry Ian. I meant, how do I test how the new iMovie 10 exports. Does it still drop a frame. I wasn't questioning your knowledge on FCPX or how FCPX handles exporting without dropping a frame. At first glance, it looks like the new iMovie 10 has stepped up it's game and has truly become the little sibling of it's big brother (FCPX) with background processing and the likes. Since I still have a ton of Standard Def .DV footage to work through, I don't want to use a program that the final output is degraded even more then the original SD consumer camcorder footage I shot. I know this is a mute issue if I step up to FCPX and all it's glory, but since I'm just doing very basic editing, it would be nice to be able to use the free iMovie to do what I'm doing. I've never like the idea of feeling like I need a Pro level device to do basic consumer functions. Call me conservative in that way. That's just me.


After playing around with the export in iMovie 10, it seems I'm not able to export a .mov file, just a mp4 which looks to be highly compressed due to file size compared to the original. Seeing the file size difference between the two, probably is a sign that, if I'm wanting to save a copy as a finished archive for my kids, iMovie isn't the way to go. I know you had mentioned in an earlier post that a person probably won't be able to see the difference, but it would just be nice for me to know I'm outputting at the highest quality. I know, I know, Consumer SD footage and high quality is an oxymoron. ;)


Ultimately what I'm wanting to accomplish is: after doing basic editing of my home movies, I output to itunes to enjoy home movie night with my family via the appleTV. But then save a .mov copy of the movie as the highest quality archive for later use if needed. Does that workflow still make since today?


Again, sorry for the confusion. I've always looked at your advise as well as other contributors advise as gold.


Joe

Nov 25, 2013 10:47 AM in response to Joe Herth

Sorry Joe, those first sentences came out stronger than I intended.


I've just had another quick look at iMovie 10 and it's too complicated for me to fathom! (I'm not kidding)


From what I can see (and I may be wrong), all the share options appear to produce PROGRESSIVE compressed H.264 movies.


This is not necessarily a bad thing as interlacing appears to be a relic of the past and no modern equipment TVs, computers etc. can play it.


Well they can play it but they have to convert it to progressive on the fly.


So you may as well keep all your archives as progressive ........... and compressed H.264 which everything is now geared up to play.


It's also nice to have your massive 13GB/hour DV movies a nice convenient 1.3GB


Try a little test ......... select a few seconds of typical video, make a mini-project and share it.


Then open both the original and the new 10% size movies in QT Players and view them frame by frame side by side.


I think you will be hard put to spot any difference and look at the space you save.


You can upload them to the cloud where all your relations can download their own copies ........... and the more copies there are around, the safer are your archives.


I've done the same as you.


I've copied all my old DV tapes onto hard drives and intend to compress them, but like you, I don't feel happy about trashing the originals!


It's crazy because when we are all dead and gone our families will probably not care a hoot about the originals or even have the knowledge and equipment to use them. 😟

Nov 25, 2013 2:22 PM in response to Ian R. Brown

Thanks Ian for the advise. I'll try the export test as you explained, and I'm sure your thoughts are accurate that I will be hard pressed to see the difference. But I will do the test, to see for myself.


If I 'share' my movies as H.264 mp4 files. Is that a good format to store my movies for later use, such as re-editing? And if that's the case, I could essentially trash my .DV files and like you said, save a heck of a lot of disk space?


One more question. I'm always full of them. ;) If I move up to FCPX, is this process the same, except somehow it keeps both fields on export? So in a since, whether I can see it or not, get a higher quality mp4 file? I always was made to believe it is best to save everything as .mov files. Had that advise changed?


I'm now currently shooting with a AVCHD 1080p camera, I'm assuming this makes all the above a mute issue?



I do have to say, your last sentence made me laugh. Sometimes I wonder if I have to be dead and gone for my family to not care a hoot about these family videos. ;)


Thanks so much Ian.

Nov 25, 2013 11:58 PM in response to Joe Herth

H.264 is one of the worst formats for editing as it is basically the same as AVCHD.


You can edit it natively just as you can edit AVCHD (H.264) natively but it is much easier if you convert it to Apple Intermediate Codec or ProRes 422 for the editing process. (This whacks the file sizes up to many times that of the original H.264 files but makes it easier for the computer to process).


Then you export the edited video as H.264 which is good for space saving/archiving and playback.

Importing miniDV files losslessly

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