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Q: Importing miniDV files losslessly

Hi,

 

I have an old Sony TCR-TRV11 Camcorder that uses miniDV cassettes for recording video. I have recently imported all of them thorugh firewire 800 via iMovie '11 as .dv files into the iMovie Events folder. Is there a way to convert those .dv files losslessly into .mov? I have done research and learned that you can use MPEG Streamclip to do the conversion process, but I'm not sure what settings to use because I'm not really a pro at this stuff. Is there data loss when converting using software like MPEG streamclip? Is it better if I get Final Cut Express and import from the camcorder again, this time directly into the .mov container file format? And if I purchase a used copy of Final Cut Express, will it work on my computer? I just want to preserve all my old videos without losing any detail/information.

 

Thanks!

iMovie '11, OS X Mountain Lion (10.8.4)

Posted on Oct 3, 2013 3:04 PM

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Q: Importing miniDV files losslessly

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  • by Ian R. Brown,

    Ian R. Brown Ian R. Brown Nov 25, 2013 11:58 PM in response to Joe Herth
    Level 6 (18,659 points)
    Mac OS X
    Nov 25, 2013 11:58 PM in response to Joe Herth

    H.264 is one of the worst formats for editing as it is basically the same as  AVCHD.

     

    You can edit it natively just as you can edit AVCHD (H.264) natively but it is much easier if you convert it to Apple Intermediate Codec or ProRes 422 for the editing process. (This whacks the file sizes up to many times that of the original H.264 files but makes it easier for the computer to process).

     

    Then you export the edited video as H.264 which is good for space saving/archiving and playback.

  • by Ian R. Brown,

    Ian R. Brown Ian R. Brown Nov 26, 2013 12:04 AM in response to Ian R. Brown
    Level 6 (18,659 points)
    Mac OS X
    Nov 26, 2013 12:04 AM in response to Ian R. Brown

    Something has just occurred to me.

     

    What app are you using to edit your videos?

     

    I thought you had FCE ?

     

    You can edit your DV files losslessly in that and then export them as H.264

  • by Pieter_from_Ehv,

    Pieter_from_Ehv Pieter_from_Ehv Jan 12, 2014 7:17 AM in response to Joe Herth
    Level 1 (45 points)
    Jan 12, 2014 7:17 AM in response to Joe Herth

    Do we know how the new iMovie 10 handles .dv editing or exporting?  Is it still single field?

     

    I did some experiments with iMovie 10 and interlaced video, using the method described by Karsten Schlüter.

    https://sites.google.com/site/theimovieoutputproject/chapter-2-how-to-find-out-

     

    The problem seems to be solved in the latest iMovie 10 version. More info (in Dutch) with example pics:

    http://www.macfreak.nl/forums/topic/10/3480/single-field-processing-problem-solv ed-in-imovie-10/

  • by Johnny O,

    Johnny O Johnny O Jan 19, 2014 9:05 PM in response to MartinR
    Level 1 (35 points)
    Jan 19, 2014 9:05 PM in response to MartinR

    Martin R.

     

    Just saw your post regarding export and single field processing in iMovie 8, 9 and 11--very valuable. 

     

    Presuming that one has an video asset in .dv format, is there any process, conversion or codec that would allow import, edit and export/share by iMovie 8 or 9 or 11, to circumvent single field processing (reduced resolution)?

  • by Pieter_from_Ehv,

    Pieter_from_Ehv Pieter_from_Ehv Jan 19, 2014 10:20 PM in response to Johnny O
    Level 1 (45 points)
    Jan 19, 2014 10:20 PM in response to Johnny O

    @Johnny O: You can import your DV material using iMovie. No quality is lost during import as explained by MartinR. You can then take the raw imported file as input to JES Deinterlacer and convert your movie from Interlaced (50i / 60i) to Progressive (25p, 30p). This is done outside iMovie. Then you import the deinterlaced movie in iMovie again for further processing. The deinterlacing process is described in more detail by Karsten on his webpage: http://www.elgato.com/video/video-capture

  • by Pieter_from_Ehv,

    Pieter_from_Ehv Pieter_from_Ehv Jan 19, 2014 10:22 PM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv
    Level 1 (45 points)
    Jan 19, 2014 10:22 PM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv

    Oops! Wrong link. I meant this webpage from Karsten:

    https://sites.google.com/site/theimovieoutputproject/

  • by Johnny O,

    Johnny O Johnny O Jan 28, 2014 4:05 PM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv
    Level 1 (35 points)
    Jan 28, 2014 4:05 PM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv

    Hi Pieter, Thank you, hope i'm not hi-jacking this forum; but, can start a new one if necessary.

     

    I downloaded the JES deinterlacer and have started to experiment.  And, I wish to use iMovie '11 for all import; perhaps you and/or others can comment on a few follow-up points:

     

    • iMovie '11 appears to have a deinterlacer function ( See under Share>Export Using Quicktime Movie>options).  Under Video>Settings there is an "Scan" option (lnterlace and Progressive) and under Video>Size there is a "Deinterlace Source Video" tick option.  Do these options have no bearing on iMovie '11 Single Field Processing (SFP)?  Or, are these functions bugs/disabled?
    • Does the JES deinterlacer provide best/most acceptable conversion, I ask because it appears that deinterlace conversion methods reduces video quality?  I would like to compare other cost effective alternatives to JES deinterlacer as well--any suggestions? 
    • iM11 appears to import dv with automatic clip breaks/splits.  The result is sometimes many clips within Events.  Is there a workflow which can accommodate multiple clips at once using iM'11 and a deinterlacer.

     

    Thank you in Advance....

     

    johnny o

  • by Pieter_from_Ehv,

    Pieter_from_Ehv Pieter_from_Ehv Jan 28, 2014 9:47 PM in response to Johnny O
    Level 1 (45 points)
    Jan 28, 2014 9:47 PM in response to Johnny O

    @Johnny O:

     

    I don't quite understand why you want to stick to iMovie '11 instead of using the latest iMovie 10, since using iMovie 10 will solve the single-field processing limitation when working with interlaced video for you without any additional tricks.

     

    (1) You're talking about the generic export flags of QuickTime. When you export an editted movie from iMovie '11 you're already have progressive material (50i --> 25p, 60i --> 30p).

     

    (2) JES Deinterlacer is free software. You won't find any cheaper than that. :-)

    You can choose to use either one or both fields in JES. When choosing both you'll end up with a 50p / 60p movie. But then you'll need some tricks (change framerate in iMovie.plist) to import and edit this in iMovie '11.

     

    (3) That question is answered here: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5411868

    Short answer: use QT 7 Pro to import.

  • by Joe Herth,

    Joe Herth Joe Herth Jan 29, 2014 7:39 AM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv
    Level 1 (40 points)
    Jan 29, 2014 7:39 AM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv

    Pieter, don't mean to get too off topic, but using iMovie 10 vs iMovie 11, do you feel all the features in 11 are in 10?  Without naming any features, it just feels like, at this point, 10's features have been slimmed down a bit. 

    One feature I will mention in particulare is the color correction, I have found iMovie 10's almost useless versus 11's was pretty robust. 

    As far as 10 eliminating the single field problem is a huge win, but at this time, it seems to come with a bit of a usability hit.

     

    Not bashing, just curious what others were thinking.  It could be that apple is just getting better at hiding the features and I haven't learned where they are yet. 

  • by Johnny O,

    Johnny O Johnny O Feb 1, 2014 2:07 PM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv
    Level 1 (35 points)
    Feb 1, 2014 2:07 PM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv

    Hi Pieter,

     

    Thank you for providing some good perspectives/links. 

     

    If iMovie 10 really does support a deinterlacing feature using both fields, that could be a big step in the right direction for those of us with legacy, interlaced source!  I'm wondering if Apple stated anything publicly or provided details regarding iM10 deinterlace support; if not, hopefully Apple will communicate iM10's deinterlace details?

     

    Regarding the JES Deinterlacer you suggest--thank you for the pointer.  I'm not questioning the value; however, whenever I qualify new software, regardless of price, I like to compare/test two or three methods/applications before adopting into my workflow.

     

    In response to your question regarding iMovie '11, I continue to use iM'11 for two reasons a) I have other applications which are not yet Mavericks OS qualified--so will need to wait a bit longer before moving to Mavericks OS and consequently, iMovie 10, and b) I'm concerned about the limited functionality in iMovie 10. Here's why....

     

    I visited an Apple Store recently and chatted with one of the video "gurus".  We both jumped-on an iMAC with iMovie 10 AND FCP installed, latest versions.  While FCP had a number of codecs visibile/available, it appears that iM10 does not have access to the same standard codec library, at least not the FCP codecs. 

     

    And, it does not appear that a user can import additional codecs into the iM10 library; thus, restricting use to only the two standard delivery codecs provided. Now, just saying what an Apple video "guru" and I observed; if anyone on these boards can refute/confirm iM10's codec availability/useability, that would be valuable feedback. 

     


  • by Pieter_from_Ehv,

    Pieter_from_Ehv Pieter_from_Ehv Feb 1, 2014 3:02 PM in response to Johnny O
    Level 1 (45 points)
    Feb 1, 2014 3:02 PM in response to Johnny O

    I don't quite understand your "lack of additional codecs" problem. To be able to use iMovie with your camcorder, you need to have support for the codec that was used to encode your source material. Nowadays that is often some variant of MPEG4/H.264/AVCHD. Furthermore iMovie needs to be capable of encoding the final result (MPEG4 again). The current version of iMovie is capable of doing this for the major part of the current camcorders.

  • by Johnny O,

    Johnny O Johnny O Feb 1, 2014 4:47 PM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv
    Level 1 (35 points)
    Feb 1, 2014 4:47 PM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv

    Perhaps a bit of background..... 

     

    A few years ago, I had converted some mini-dv and VHS tapes to .dv format.  I had "shared" my projects using AIC at the time given the quality/compression benefits.  Now, I am converting/archiving similar and additional source SD footage.  Things have changed and it appears that AIC may not be the best choice for new projects--but, I still want to ensure quality of stored projects.

     

    Fast foward to the present, I was encouraged to consider ProRes for new project archives--yes, even with SD source!  The rationale, despite the file size penalty imposed by ProRes, it is the one widely-accepted format the provides the best quality trade-off for "long-term" project(s) storage.   Also, I am lead to believe that standardizing with ProRes may make it easier to accommodate multiple source content?

     

    Unless convinced otherwise, and presuming my workflow and a desire to ensure quality access, edit and migration of past, current and future footage; it appears that ProRes satifies those objectives best.  And, it should be possible to use the resulting projects/footage to be shared in final format using the delivery codecs iMovie'10; if only iMovie'10 will support this workflow.

     

     

     


  • by Pieter_from_Ehv,

    Pieter_from_Ehv Pieter_from_Ehv Feb 1, 2014 11:43 PM in response to Johnny O
    Level 1 (45 points)
    Feb 1, 2014 11:43 PM in response to Johnny O

    It may be a coincidence that you mention ProRes. If you open a AIC movie with QuickTime Player X on Mavericks, you'll notice that QuickTime Player X first starts converting the movie before showing it. When the conversion has completed, you can watch the movie. When you try to close the QuickTime Player X window, you will be asked if you want to save the converted movie. If you do that, the movie will be saved in... ProRes! The saved movie can be imported in iMovie 10 for further processing. iMovie 10 supports the import of ProRes. The export options that are limited in iMovie 10 though. Hopefully Apple will fix that in a next update of iMovie 10 and give us back the flexible QuickTime export feature that we know from previous iMovie versions.

  • by MartinR,

    MartinR MartinR Feb 2, 2014 10:13 AM in response to Johnny O
    Level 6 (14,891 points)
    Feb 2, 2014 10:13 AM in response to Johnny O

    Johnny O

     

    I agree with you regarding ProRes, especially if you use ProRes 422 - an all I-frame codec with variable bit rate encoding (42-63 Mbit/s, well above DV/VHS data rates) and 4:2:2 chroma subsampling.  You will still be limited by the quality of the source material, but at least ProRes 422 won't degrade anything.

     

    DV is also I-frame but is compressed at a 5:1 ratio, the bit rate is 25 Mbit/s and it uses 4:1:1 chroma subsampling.  This doesn't matter at all if you are capturing DV as .dv or QuickTime .mov (DV) files - the resulting files will be identical to the source material as I explained earlier.

     

    AIC is I-frame too, and uses higher bit rates (56Mbit/s and above) but only 4:2:0 chroma subsampling so there can be some degradation of color or detail information if you are converting from DV to AIC.  It's usually not particularly noticeable but the data loss exists nonetheless.

  • by Johnny O,

    Johnny O Johnny O Feb 2, 2014 4:37 PM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv
    Level 1 (35 points)
    Feb 2, 2014 4:37 PM in response to Pieter_from_Ehv

    Hi Pieter, At the Apple Store, I brought an AIC-based movie clip to validate your experience. 

     

    The Apple Store platform had Mavericks, iMovie 10, FCP X and Quicktime X installed.  I opened a .mov clip in Quicktime X and, Voila,  the application did begin to convert.  I saved the converted file and checked the conversion codec---ProRes! 

     

    Again, on my platform, I took the same file using 10.8.5, Quicktime X/10.2, and iMovie'11 installed.  I opened the AIC clip with Quicktime 10.2; however, there was NO CONVERSION process.  I would have expected the same application, Quicktime 10.2, to have the same conversion practice regardless of the underlying OS---hmmmmm, this was a bit unsettling to discover.....

     

    I agree, Pieter, now if Apple could only provide the export capabilities and across various platforms!

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