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Choosing a Macbook Pro: Dual vs. Quad Core

I am evaluating 13" vs. 15" - retina display with flash drives (not hybrid) and memory >= 8 GB. The 13" Pros have i5 dual cores, whereas 15" Pros have i7 Quad. I plan to install Windows 8 since some of the apps I will be running require Windows. My usage is web browsing, email and word processing. I will also be running machine leanring / optimization packages like Mathematica, Matlab, Octave or R but on Windows 8 not OS X. I don't play games or watch movies on my laptop, so my streaming requirements are minimal to non-existent.


Any help deciding between the options will be appreciated. Also, will 16 GB memory make much of a difference for my usage vs. 8 GB?


Thanks in advance for replies!

MacBook Pro

Posted on Oct 3, 2013 9:07 PM

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Posted on Oct 4, 2013 9:37 AM

Now your talk'n. Serious applications require serious resources.


These applications will run faster on the quad-core 15" MBP.

16 GB faster? Depends on your actual usage.


Multicore:


Mathematica, MATLAB and Octave will speedup, using all the cores:

http://www.wolfram.com/mathematica/new-in-8/compiler-performance-enhancements/mu lticore-operation.html

http://www.mathworks.com/programs/nrd/matlab-parallel-computing-trial-request.ht ml?ref=ggl&s_eid=ppc_5262

http://octave.sourceforge.net/multicore/

I would be surprised if R does not run in parallel.


Note, twice the number of cores does not necessarily get you a full 2x speedup but it usually does run significantly faster (on multicore applications).


Memory:


As you have already implied, the flash memory will speedup the virtualization. More memory is usually a good thing for faster response times but 8 GB is alreday a hefty amount of memory. At what point is "big" big enough?


Mathematica, MATLAB and Octave will use all the memory you can throw at them but will you actually use that much memory in your particular applications?


Wolfram notes more memory is better.

http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/MemoryManagement.html

http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/TheLimitsOfMathematica.html

Mathematica uses several GB for just the code.


64-bit MATLAB on 64-bit Windows or OS X will support an 8 TB process limit! (not a typo)


Octave has a 16 GB limit per matrix.

http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/memory-td3427479.html


R most likely has similar memory characteristics.

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Question marked as Best reply

Oct 4, 2013 9:37 AM in response to GAB449

Now your talk'n. Serious applications require serious resources.


These applications will run faster on the quad-core 15" MBP.

16 GB faster? Depends on your actual usage.


Multicore:


Mathematica, MATLAB and Octave will speedup, using all the cores:

http://www.wolfram.com/mathematica/new-in-8/compiler-performance-enhancements/mu lticore-operation.html

http://www.mathworks.com/programs/nrd/matlab-parallel-computing-trial-request.ht ml?ref=ggl&s_eid=ppc_5262

http://octave.sourceforge.net/multicore/

I would be surprised if R does not run in parallel.


Note, twice the number of cores does not necessarily get you a full 2x speedup but it usually does run significantly faster (on multicore applications).


Memory:


As you have already implied, the flash memory will speedup the virtualization. More memory is usually a good thing for faster response times but 8 GB is alreday a hefty amount of memory. At what point is "big" big enough?


Mathematica, MATLAB and Octave will use all the memory you can throw at them but will you actually use that much memory in your particular applications?


Wolfram notes more memory is better.

http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/MemoryManagement.html

http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/TheLimitsOfMathematica.html

Mathematica uses several GB for just the code.


64-bit MATLAB on 64-bit Windows or OS X will support an 8 TB process limit! (not a typo)


Octave has a 16 GB limit per matrix.

http://octave.1599824.n4.nabble.com/memory-td3427479.html


R most likely has similar memory characteristics.

Oct 4, 2013 9:48 AM in response to GAB449

havds4 has given you a lot of food for thought. Let me just add this graphic from the OWC web site which illustrates the impact of SSDs and RAM on a MBP. You will note the the impact of 16 GB RAM is certainly evident but not significant if one has solid state storage. The law of diminishing returns is starting to take place.


User uploaded file

Ciao.

Oct 4, 2013 1:04 PM in response to GAB449

Goodie. I get to put on my high-performance computing hat.


Great informatoin in the graph for deciding between disk and SSD, which is important and was not part of my analysis.


Before I get going too deeply I'll try to bring this down to earth.


Simple factors for a SWAG:

How long do your runs take now?

In how much real and virtual memory?

- Are you willing to increase the RAM so it covers the current virtual memory size

to avoid the paging to disk or SSD?


A factor for a more accurate measurement with a relatively easy benchmark:

What is the run time difference currently if they fit in RAM vs. virtual memory?


Then add this consideration:

How much are the applications expected to grow if you have a more hefty machine?

And the bottom line:

Will the faster expected execution speed be worth the higher price?


Then there are harder questions (CPU speed, memory bandwidth, disk vs. SSD) for which you may need to benchmark them on the actual target hardware. These other factors probably won't matter in the end, given the large RAM and SSD tipping point differences.


Keeping the data in RAM is likely to have a biggest impact on speed than any other factor but as with with most HPC applications, the answer is "it depends" if the cost justifies the benefit.


========= ========= ========= =========


Options and impact:


(1) $1800: 4 GB RAM on disk?

(2) $2200: 8 GB RAM on SSD?

(3) $2800 16 GB RAM on SSD?


Given Mathematica uses several GB just for the code, the 4 GB solution is likely to be too small. So that limits you to a $600 decision on if you need more than 8 GB of RAM. It also elevates the SSD decision.


Ignore the processor speed differences, even the Turbo Boost. I am not familiar with the details of the 3.7 GHz Turbo Boost but is sounds sexy. At most it would yield a 50% boost and probably not that much.


How much time do you want to spend making this decision? You can SWAG it or run relatively simple benchmarks.


SWAG: How much memory will your application need? I would base my decision on the RAM size and ignore the other differences. Luckily this analysis is probably the simplest since one can roughly calculate the gross memory usage from expect problem sizes and estimate if it will exceed 8 GB. Will you run in less than 8 GB most of the time and can wait for exeptional runs that are larger? Those are the tipping points.


Deeper analysis (and probably not to hard to do): One can benchmark on existing 4 or 8 GB systems by artificially adjusting the application size from fitting in in RAM to overflowing into virtual paging. For example, calculate something that with double the memory and should take twice as long (double the calculations) and then cut the longer run time in half to compensate for the extra calculations. Then double the speed estimate for using SSD instead of disk (but only in the 4 GB to 8 GB comparison). It is best to do this on application algorithms that will be similar to the target applications since data access patterns matter for virtual memory access. (Careful, some calculations increase exponentially in time while space increases linearly and vice versa.)


If you have real-world applications you can grow and shrink, so much the better.


And of course an SSD based Mac is faster for normal operations that do I/O. Boot and shutdown times are significantly faster. I hope never to go back to a disk.


Summary:

More is better but are you willing to pay for it?

$400 more for 8 GB and an SSD?

Most likely worth it.

An additional $600 for 16 GB?

Depends.

Does the extra speed really matter in the end?


P.S. I have another option to consider in my next response that may make the decision even easier.

Oct 4, 2013 1:32 PM in response to hands4

OGELTHORPE or others,


I assume the 8 GB MBP is upgradeable to 16 GB. True?

Most of the cost difference between the 8 GB and 16 GB models is in the CPU type. One pays a premium for the top-of-the line CPUs.

A 16 GB memory kit (two 8 GB boards) costs less than $150.


So if one starts with an 8 GB machine it is easily upgradable to 16 GB if it is too slow. Correct?

Even if right now one thinks they need 16 GB would it be less expensive to buy the 8 GB model and then upgrade to 16 GB.


Would it void the warranty? If so this idea is DOA.

Would Apple perform this memory upgrade in warranty?

Oct 4, 2013 1:38 PM in response to hands4

hands4, greetings; Note that retina MBPs are essentially sealed units with no changes to the CPU/GPU or RAM after purchase. Third party storage is available but that will void the warranty.


My approach to cost/benefits is crude , simple but close to reality. If the unit is for vocational or truly professional usage where time is money, opt for the top end as much as the bank account permits. The options should eventually pay for them selves.


For the non-vocational user, a base machine is more than sufficient. I witness too many individuals get obsessed by the 'numbers' without realizing that even 'slow' machines are fast. Unless you have another MBP right beside you running exactly the same app, you would not notice any meaningful difference. But then for some 'bragging rights' are very important.


Ciao.

Oct 4, 2013 2:03 PM in response to GAB449

Expressing my PERSONAL views, $100 for the 2.7 CPU is worth it. 8 GB RAM with the SSD is more than sufficient. This for me the problematic area is storage. I use 1 TB HDDs in my MBPs, so storage is important. $700 for 768 GB storage is hard for me to accept. That is the primary reason why I am so eminently satisfied with my 2011 17" MBP! 😀


Ciao.

Oct 5, 2013 2:14 PM in response to hands4

Thank you for all the help. I bought the 8 GB Pro with the default 2.4 GHz.


While setting up the machine, I noticed the bottom part near the display was getting pretty hot within a few minutes. I could feel it on lap even through my Jeans. I have not experienced anything similar with Windows laptops even after extended (couple of hours) usage. Is the heat normal for the Pro?

Choosing a Macbook Pro: Dual vs. Quad Core

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