clipping sound on new iMac when Logix X is running

true, but i still find it curious that i experience no issues at all on the built in interface? my understanding was that everyone with the fusion drive experiences problems with the built in card as well.. i have yet to experience that..

i may be confusing or misinterpreting the issues though. right now it seems i have one, and only one problem, and that is clicks+pops leading to total death of sound when using my usb audio interface.

EDIT: how to i qoute a post? 🙂

Additional:

I am expecting a Duet 2 to arrive here this afternoon via UPS for a client of mine so i intend to install it on my 2013 iMac without FD and see what happens... Currently this Mac works without any audio issues with my Motu Ultralite Mk2 so it might be an interesting experiment

EDIT: how to i qoute a post? 🙂

Two ways...

1) Reply to the post and then press the quote button in the text editor and that will quote the entire post

2) Copy the text from the post, paste it into your post and then highlight it and press the quote button to turn that text into a quote 🙂

Just wanted to drop by and say im one more person with this issue. Late 2013 imac, 3TB fusion drive.

-Pops, clicks and clips appearing randomly at intervals while playing any audio (itunes, youtube, logic, vlc).

-Also sound can start getting more and more distorted until its inaudible, at which point "something" seems to "reset" and then it sounds fine... until it happens again.

For me this only happens while using my audio interfaces (kb37 or HD500 from line 6 exhibit this issue). This issue is not there while listening audio through the imac speakers.

I have raised a support ticket with Line 6 and they responded saying this is a known issue and that they are currently investigating it. Nothing else.

This is the first apple product i have bought, and im a little disappointed with it. I payed premium for it (in my country its around 500 dollars more expensive as well) and its hard to believe i cant do with it what im able to do perfectly fine with my 400 dollars windows laptop.

Hope this issue gets sorted out soon...

Brentsonius/Beefus:

I am having IDENTICAL issues as you with the Apogee Duet! I am very happy to find your post as now I know I am not crazy! I have been going back and forth with both Apple and Apogee to no avail.

The difference being that I am using a new 2013 Retina Macbook 15". I even returned one yesterday in hopes of that solving the issue with the Duet. But about 3 minutes after hooking up the new Macbook with the Duet I had the very same issue. Video/sound freezes. Difficult to get int o System preferences SOUND. Listing UNKOWN.

As soon as I unplug the Duet the sound and video resumes as normal using the internal speaker.

Did you get any update or any new information?

EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING! Both the computer and The Duet is not inexpensive. It amazes me that both companies are so un-sypathetic to customers!

Thanks,

Prem

Update:

I received my client's Duet 2 and have been running tests on it with Mavericks on my 2013 iMac which does NOT have a Fusion drive installed. Using the latest drivers for the Duet 2 I am also getting dropouts and issues with the Duet just 'vanishing' and not being recognised by OS X. I tested it using Logic Pro X, Digital Performer 8 and Live 9 and got the same results.

I also tested it on my 2012 Mac Mini (which has a Fusion Drive installed) running Mavericks and I got the exact same issue. Note: Both my 2013 iMac and 2012 Mac Mini have USB3 ports and not USB2 ports...

The exact same Macs work perfectly with my Motu Ultralite FW Mk2 and Mk3 Hybrid (via USB or FW) so I have to assume the issue is regarding the Duet 2 itself and/or its drivers... and USB3

Also I tested the Duet 2 with my 2011 iMac that has USB2 ports with Mavericks and no issues.. so I am again assuming this is the USB3 incompatibility issue that some USB2 hardware has... which has to be fixed via firmware or driver updates to the Duet..

It appears that Don from Apogee has found a solution to the Duet 2 dropping out or having distorted audio. The problem is fixed when you connect your USB based audio interface to a thunderbolt hub. Apparently there is a problem with the USB power management on the new iMacs? Here is what Don from Apogee said:

"We have the Matrox DS1. We also tried it through the USB ports on a Thunderbolt display (works!), and just got the Belkin Thunderbolt hub to test out too. So far, if you can get the audio interface off of the USB bus and through the Thunderbolt port it seems to work OK.

From our initial testing, it seems to be that the more audio channels on the USB interface, the quicker it is distort or drop out. Something very simple like a ONE or JAM works fine, while the Duet/Quartet-size units start out OK but eventually drop out or start to distort. Interfaces with a very high channel count (Symphony I/O) go into distortion quickly.

Keep in mind, this is just my limited knowledge so far - but our QA team is digging in deep on the issue with Apple!"

brentonius,

Ah.... If you recall my post to you a few pages back....

Its worth noting that given you are using USB2, there is a known issue with certain interfaces that use USB and 'cut off' for no apparent reason...that has yet to be fully understood... It seems to be related to low power caused by several other USB devices plugged into the Mac that are draining power from the bus... but not always. Almost all Powered USB AIs don't seem to have this issue... but almost all non powered ones do... FW AIs do not have this issue either...

This is this known issue when Devs/Designers originally designed their USB2 devices to use a certain amount of power that was available (but if I understand correctly, was more than the original USB2 guidelines recommended they should use) via the USB2 port but the available power changed with the USB3 spec... which is why some of these USB2 devices aren't fully compatible with USB3 ports... This problem has affected certain (but not all) Audio/Midi interfaces with both Macs and PCs that have the newer USB3 ports...

And so, as per the response you got... one assumes... The more channels, the more load and the more load, the higher the drain on power... from the USB3 port that simply isn't available.... hence the crash/slow death of the interface....

For anyone interested... I received an email from a hardware tech who specializes in USB design after asking for his opinion regading this issue.. and he said the following...

USB 3.0 ports are available in both low power and high power variations, providing 150 mA and 900 mA respectively while simultaneously transmitting data at the new upgraded superspeed levels.

These values also applied to USB 2.0 ports but USB 2.0 ports also had the ability to add an additional 100 mA for short periods of time which many designers used to improve the capabilities of their USB 2.0 connected devices. This was not recommended because the extra 100 mA was set out to be used only under very specific circumstances and for very clear purposes, none of which were intended to provide an extra boost of power to a USB 2.0 device after initial connection was completed but never-the-less, several designers went ahead and used the extra 100 mA to power their devices when needed as no issues were found during testing, when doing so with USB 2.0 spec'd ports.

However, this additional 100mA is not available with USB 3.0 ports as per the USB 3.0 specifications. This lack of availability of the additional 100mA is often the cause of data transfer errors between a computer and a USB 2.0 device that was designed to use the additional 100 mA when the device is put under higher loads and that extra 'boost' is no longer there to be used with USB 3.0 spec'd ports.

So, if I understand what he wrote..... in short..

Some Devs used some extra available power to improve the capabilities of their unpowered Midi/Audio interfaces, that was available via a USB2 port though it was not recommended to use this extra power for this purpose.. but that extra power is no longer is available via a USB3 port.... hence the issues! This also helps explain why some USB interfaces that have their own power and do not rely on USB ports for power, seem unaffected by this issue.

Please note: I am simply relaying on something written/described by a third party and I am not 'techy enough" to know if this is absolutely accurate or not but i did do some basic research on the net and found much of what the tech stated to be correct in terms of figures mentioned and power availability changing between USB2 and USB3 specs.. As for his conclusions.. They make sense to me but again, I don't know if this is the case in regards to any given USB device.

Do the Firewire Duets have any problems?

I don't know Pancenter..

But I doubt it would have any issues.. (If there are current drivers available for it) as FW400 specs provide for a lot more available power at the port than USB2/3 did/do... I believe the difference is FW400 offers 1500 mA per port compared to 900 mA for USB 2/3

Its worth noting that USB3 ports can offer 1500 mA at the port but only for Battery Charging and when used like that, Data Transmission cannot be performed.

As per the USB3 specs...

Additionally, the Battery Charging Specification (Version 1.2 – December 2010), increases the power handling capability to 1.5 A but does not allow concurrent data transmission

Just was wondering if anyone tried hooking up their USB audio interface to a USB 2.0 hub. This might be a solution if the problem with dropouts is due to the USB 3/2 power problem...

Pancenter wrote:

Do the Firewire Duets have any problems?

Yes. I have both an Apogee ONE USB and an Apogee DUET Firewire (400) and both have issues although with different symptoms.

The ONE USB after a few seconds of recording audio starts to induce noise and distortion. Much like what you would get with lots of fuzzing.

The Duet Firewire after a few minutes simply stops working. Sound simply cuts off with a large crack noise and then silence.

Note:

Duet Firewire was connected with a Thunderbolt to Firewire cable from Apple and then a Firewire 800 to Firewire 400 cable.

Duet USB was connected directly to the Mac.

I FOUND A FIX!!!

Sorry for the capital letters, but I am extremely happy & excited.

**FIX FOUND! To those who use USB Duet 2.0 and get audio drop outs, you can be rid of this problem completely by hooking your audio interface through a USB 2.0 hub!**

Well, I tried something out and it fixed my problems completely. Don from Apogee was right. Using a hub really helps solve the audio drop outs. I haven't had one problem yet with constant use on my new iMac for quite a few hours. This has never been the case so far with my set up! I was constantly getting drop outs (no audio distortion really, just drop outs).

When Don mentioned the Thunderbolt hub, and after reading on this forum about power problems with USB 2 vs 3 (thanks, Art of Sound), a thought occurred to me! So I scrounged through a box to find my old USB 2.0 hub I never use. The thing has its own power source, and ever since I plugged in the Duet, no problems. I've opened, closed, changed programs, worked on music for over an hour in Logic using heavy loads of instruments. Nothing shakes it! So, my problem is effectively solved!

To those who have a Duet USB 2, seriously, go out and buy a USB 2.0 hub! Mine is a Dynex with 7 ports. It cost like $40 or something.. can't remember. But you can find ones that have 4 ports and are cheaper.
Sadly, to those who have Fusion drives, this will likely *not* solve your problem of audio distortion. But to those who have either SSD or 7200rpm drives, like me, plus a USB interface, you are in luck. This definitely works and I can't stress enough how happy I am. Unlike my crappy soundflower 'fix' that wasn't really a fix, this one has absolutely no problems and my audio interface is as stable as it was on my old 2009 iMac. Now I can get back to work!

So... to all those who have a similar set up to mine, YOU ARE IN LUCK!

I would like to thank the Art of Sound for mentioning the USB 2 vs 3 thing. I put two and two together when Don from Apogee said the problem went away with a Thunderbolt hub. So... again... THANK YOU!

Using a hub also crossed my mind after reading about the power levels of the usb. I will try this later today when I get home and see if it solves the issue with my Apogee ONE as well. I also have the fusion drive so I can test if it affects the audio recording as well.

It's still a ****** solution, but better than nothing for now. 🙂

I have actually used my One with my iPad through a powered hub before for power reasons. And now the second revision of the One has it's own power supply for the same reason. So the question is if some interfaces just require more power than is supported on USB3? In that case, there will never be an actual fix I guess?