10 Replies Latest reply: Oct 10, 2013 11:28 PM by davidl466
davidl466 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

So I have my final film edit in FCP 6 which uses two different codecs...DVCPROHD 720p60 at 23.98fps and HDV 1080p24 at 23.98fps. There are only about 15 clips which are the HDV codec. My next step is to color correct in apple Color. So I did a quick test where I sent a couple clips of each codec, on the same timeline, into Color and back out into FCP, which seemed to roundtrip without any hitches...the only difference is that the DVCPRO clips came back as ProRes 422HQ 1280x720 and the HDV clips came back as 1920x1080...which is all fine. However, I do want 1080p (1920x1080) as my final output...for Bluray as well as DCP if my film gets picked up by a festival. So what I plan to do for my final output is export my completed Colored timeline to compressor and use ProRes 422 HQ at 1080p. My question is...since there isn't a specific 1080p ProRes HQ codec (like there is for DVCPROHD) but simply the "Geometry" tab in Compressor where you can change the 'Dimensions' to 1920x1080...is this how I "Uprez" my DVCPRO 720p clips to match my HDV 1080p clips?

 

I just want to make sure NOW, that my workflow will be good all the way up to finishing, before I start sending sections of my timeline to Color...

 

Thanks!

David


Final Cut Pro 6, Mac OS X (10.5.8), Compressor 1.0.4
  • Shane Ross Level 8 Level 8 (42,500 points)

    Best to render out the show as 720p.  But put all the HDV footage on another layer...I'll get back to them.

     

    Duplicate the sequence.  Remove the HDV shots.  Export that sequence as a self contained QT file.  One long file.  Take that into Compressor to upscale.  Bring that upscale footage back into FCP. Make a new sequence with this as the main clip...so new sequence, drop this on, and then say YES to the "do you want the sequence to match" question.

     

    Now...back to the HDV clips.  Copy them from their upper layer on that one duplicated sequence, and paste them into this new sequence...make sure to start them at the same point in the sequence, so they all line up.

     

    Now you have a 1080p 23.98 sequence, only the DVCPRO HD footage was upscaled, and only what was used...the HDV is left big.  Export this for final compression.

  • Michael Grenadier Level 7 Level 7 (20,335 points)

    And be sure and turn on frame controls in the frame controls panel in compressor and change the resizing filter to "best"

  • davidl466 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hey thanks Shane, and I am aware of the frame controls Michael, thank you. I am wondering though Shane...it seems like it would be almost easier to just downconvert the few shots of HDV 1080p to DVCPROHD 720p to match everything else before going to color...I know I would risk degrading quality a bit but, not really sure how noticable it would be...also, you are saying to send the 720p timeline to compressor to upscale it AFTER going through Color...correct? One problem I see that might come up here is if I end up having to re-color correct down the line, even if it's just one of the sent sections of my timeline (the timeline is 86 minutes)....then I would have to go through the whole process of sending my entire 720p timeline back to compressor to redo the upscale to 1080p...would really have to get it done right the first time..or it'd be a lot of extra work.

     

    BTW, why is it better to send the DVCPRO 720p stuff for upscale BEFORE marrying it with the HDV 1080p stuff...my method of upscaling the 720p with the 1080p stuff at the same time seemed logical to me (the 720p is upscaled while the 1080p stays the same)...just want to know WHY your method is better??

     

    Thanks so much, really appreciate the help here!

  • Shane Ross Level 8 Level 8 (42,500 points)

    OK...you wanted a 1080p final, right? So why shrink the HDV down to 720p, and then blow it back up to 1080p? That's the point of doing both formats separately, and upscaling only the 720p...keeping the HDV at full size.  How noticeable will it be? Test to find out.  Personally, I'd do it my way. 

     

    And yes, upscale AFTER you color correct.  As for re-color correcting down the line...why? Color correcting is the final process...do it until it's right...why would you go back? And if you did adjust a couple shots, then just render those back out, and only upscale those and put into that final sequence again.  It's a small patch.

     

    >why is it better to send the DVCPRO 720p stuff for upscale BEFORE marrying it with the HDV 1080p stuff.

     

    because the HDV is already 1080. Scaling it down to 720, then back up will be TWO generation losses. Why do that?

     

    >my method of upscaling the 720p with the 1080p stuff at the same time seemed logical to me (the 720p is upscaled while the 1080p stays the same)

     

    But it doesn't...you first will be shrinking it to 720p...then blowing up to 1080p. And HDV is a GOP format without real frames, so the compression really pops when you upscale.

     

    >just want to know WHY your method is better??

     

    Because I tested this out..mixing 720p DVCPRO HD and HDV...and my method gave the best results.  Call it "experience."

  • davidl466 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Awesome, thanks Shane! I get all of what you're saying...except one slightly confusing point:

     

     

    >my method of upscaling the 720p with the 1080p stuff at the same time seemed logical to me (the 720p is upscaled while the 1080p stays the same)

     

    But it doesn't...you first will be shrinking it to 720p...then blowing up to 1080p. And HDV is a GOP format without real frames, so the compression really pops when you upscale.

     

    So why will the 1080p stuff be shrunk to 720p if I'm just sending the entire timeline (including both 720p and 1080p) straight into Compressor for uprez? Is it because my timeline settings are for 720p..and so it downconverts the 1080p in the process of the send?

  • Shane Ross Level 8 Level 8 (42,500 points)

    If your 1080 footage is in a 720p sequence...and it is full frame, you can see the entire image...then it is downscaled. Double-click on a clip and look in the MOTION tab...it'll be like 66%. it's shrunk. Then if you upscale all that via compressor...you are now blowing that shrunken image back up again. 

     

    The downconvert happened already...when you added it to the 720p sequence.

  • davidl466 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    AHA! Well THAT makes sense now!! Thanks Shane! That makes a lot of things make more sense :)

     

    Last thing: Should I still send the 1080p with the 720p on same timeline (720p60 23.98fps) to color? Will the 1080p stuff be ok when it comes back to FCP as long as I put it in a new 1080p timeline? If I send both codecs together to Color then my render out would probably be best at ProRes 422HQ right? Uncompressed 10-bit would be overkill?

  • Shane Ross Level 8 Level 8 (42,500 points)

    I'd send them separately to Color. If you send the 1080 footage in a 720p sequence, most likely it'll get rendered out as 720p. 

     

    ProRes HQ...no one uses Uncompressed.  Way too unwieldy.

  • davidl466 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Shane, I actually just did a test on it...rendered out of Color using ProRes 422 HQ for both codecs and the HDV 1080p clips came back scaled down to 66.67 in the motion tab...so even though that's scaled down to 720p, can't I just move it up to 100 percent? Won't this make it 1080p and I'm good to go?

     

    Dang it...so I just realized, after putting one of the HDV 1080p clips in a new 1080 timeline that the frame size is of course 1440x1080 since it's HDV!! So there are big black bars on both sides of the clip to make up the actual 1920x1080 resolution. I didn't notice this on my timeline before because they were all scaled down to 720p...so now what to do?? Is my only option after all going to be what I did in the first place...scale the 1080p down to 720p and then upscale everything together to 1080p (which gets rid of the black side bars)...is that the only way to get HDV clips up to 1920x1080 properly??

     

    Sorry Shane, ugh....

  • davidl466 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Alright, so I WAS able to fix the problem with the 1440x1080 by just changing my pixel aspect ratio to "square" in compressor (think I had it at HDV 1080i the first time). Now it fills out the entire 1920x1080 frame size, which is great!

     

    And about the first part of my question...it Does appear you have to render them out of Color separately because the HDV 1080p HAS to go out at 1920x1080 so there won't be the black bars on the side...but the 720p has to go out at 1280x720 obviously...so I will put them into Color as separate timelines for that reason...

     

    Thanks again Shane! Much knowledge gained