mLAN Driver Bugs

I strongly support this request.

This is very important to US. Yamaha claims they have to wait for Apple...

Thanks

Raynald Nadeau

I am very familiar with Zibba from the 01xray forums (a community of mLAN users including Apple customers). Our members are growing increasingly frustrated by a lack of advancement in mLAN for OSX. We have been told on more than one occasion that although mLAN is a YAMAHA technology, Apple is a partner in its development for OSX and things can not advance without Apple's support.

Most of the early issues with mLAN for Windows XP have been addressed in updates to Yamaha's mLAN tools for XP (now on version 1.5.5). However, major shortcomings in the software on OSX have mired mLAN's advancement as a viable professional standard for music production on Apple computers. Our technically capable users are relegated to unusual workarounds to make the most out of what really should be cutting edge audio-midi-networking on "the world's most advanced operating system", OSX.4 Tiger.

Areas that need immediate attention:

1. A random offset in all audio recorded through mLAN. Please read an explanation here:
http://www.01xray.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=7&Board=01X_Macintosh&Number=26629 6&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

2. An incomplete graphic patchbay. We are unable to split mLAN I/O. The patchbay is essentially crippled in comparison to its XP counterpart.

3. mLAN for OSX does not allow for any device other than the Mac to serve as wordclock master.

4. mLAN for OSX suffers from inefficient use of CPU and "bursts" or "spikes" during performance.

At this time we implore Apple Computer to acknowledge their customers concerns and commit to a resolution.

Thank you.

I too strongly support this. As things currently stand, I am unable to replicate, even approximately, the patching that I am able to acheive under Windows XP. This renders part of my studio as unusable with the current drivers, as I need to use up 8 unused analog channels in order to be able to use ADAT on my second i88x.

As an 01xray member, I had been patiently waiting and holding out hope that the 10.4.7 OS update and Yamaha's 1.0.6 mLAN update were going to provide the same sort of functionality available under Windows XP with Yamaha's mLAN 1.5.5, but were unfortunately disappointed.

Unlike many other users, I am fortunate that I have a Windows machine available to use for professional audio production utilizing mLAN, because the limitations with the OSX drivers are such that it is not possible for me to work on that platform.

Specifically the inability of mLAN on OSX to sync to an external wordclock means that I cannot directly connect my Kurzweil K2600 to the mLAN network, as it must act as a wordclock master. Of all the professional/semi-professional soundcards, mLAN on OSX is the only one that I am aware of that does not allow such as basic thing as the ability to sync to an external source.

The inability of the current patchbay to allow unconnected outputs on external mLAN devices basically precludes the use of ADAT Inputs on Yamaha's i88x devices, particularly in setups utilizing more than one mLAN device (which really is the whole point of mLAN). This limitation cripples mLAN to the point that it is unusable for me on the mac.

The offset issue described above by Elmer J Fudd was the focus of much debate on the Windows XP platform and was solved by the recent 1.5.5 mLAN update. While it is possible to work around the random offset, it shouldn't be necessary to do so with software such as Logic Pro and Cubase SX3 which both have features designed to compensate for latency's. The random offset bug renders the Delay Compensation for professional production software such as Logic and Cubase utterly useless.

These ongoing bugs are unacceptable and I would like to encourage both Apple and Yamaha to co-operate in giving users the long promised features that they paid good money for.

Dear Apple-folks...

I think it is time to open an actual support ticket for this problem.

Multi-vendor finger-pointing is not helping here... We're dependent on both Apple and Yamaha for a solution. Because I have a long-standing relationship with Yamaha, and I've also actually done design and consulting work for them, I have no reason to distrust them.

Yamaha states that Apple is responsible for implementing a properly working mLAN within OSX. Stable implementations of mLAN exist on WinXP, WinXP 64-bit, and Mac Classic (os9).

We need a definitive statement, bug tracking number or whatever it is Apple does as a firm to track, escalate and resolve these types of issues. (I used to work for Microsoft for a long time, and have 20+ years running multi-million dollar new technology projects). An equivalent of a program manager providing some guidance to calm the marketplace would also be a really good idea.

Although this may read as a flame, it is not... just a business tone request to solve a real problem.

If there is a formal process for opening up a problem ticket/incident report/bug report/whatever, please let me/us know!!!

Michael Huisman

p.s. - the firm I work for will go to tender for 100K+ laptops (yes, that number is correct) sometime next year. I'd love to be able to point to Apple...



g5 quad, g5 2x2.0 and PB 17", 4x Apple Cinema displays Mac OS X (10.4.3)

if anyone can answer I'd appreciate it.

I see that there is a paid support offering for Logic and OSX including CoreAudio.

Who can I call to find out if mLAN is covered under this paid support offering.

mLAN is in CoreAudio according to the developer docs, but I don't want to pay for support only to hear that Apple's opinion is that it is not...

Is there a moderator who can ping me even by private email?

I just want to get this escalated through the proper channels and get it solved.

Thanks for any help!

Michael

Dear Apple,

I also strongly support this request.

There are a several of us within the mLan community who have been using Mac's from the very beginning, and using our Mac's to make music from the moment Midi Sequencers were available. I for one have been used to being able to enjoy processing Audio and Midi at the pretty much the cutting edge on my Macs, within the constraints of what software was available for the Mac OS platform. Audio and Graphics have over the years always been seen as Apple's strongest points - I have to assume that Apple wish to keep this reputation. mLan users represent a tiny proportion of Apple market, but they fall within a category where most people would have assumed Apple to be market leaders; and unfortunately that isn't currently the case where mLan drivers are concerned.

Having of course had, on occasions, to use Win PCs simply to gain access to packages that were not available for my Macs, I now find myself, for the first time ever, having to seriously consider replacing one of my Macs with a PC, NOT because the software I want to use isn't available natively for Mac, but because the software I use currently RUNS BETTER AND MORE RELIABLY UNDER WINDOWS.

We have been told that the issues listed in the posts above, which have been largely addressed on the Windows platform, are equally being addressed on OS X. But we have been waiting patiently for several months for our Mac mLan systems to catch up with our PC counterparts, and have yet to hear any news.

Yamaha appear still to be committed to refining mLan at least to the point of serving its original spec for the hardware originally designed to make use of it, but tell us that since the drivers for mLan are embedded in OS X, and since they have a Non Disclosure Agreement with Apple that prohibits them from commenting on any progress or targets regarding these drivers, they can give us NO indication as to when, or even if, we can expect these issues to be fixed.

We're all extremely concerned and unhappy with this situation. Many of us are using our mLan systems in professional contexts.

If the quality and reliability of mLan on the Mac does indeed depend, at least in part, on embedded driver routines within OS X, then respectfully, I think we have a right to AT LEAST hear from Apple as to whether or not you are intending to solve these issues.

Andrew Wilde.


G5 Dual 2.7, MacMini, iMac 700; P4/XP Desk & Lap. Mac OS X (10.4.6) mLan:01x/i88x; DP 5.1, Cubase SX3, Melodyne.

Dear Apple,

I have the same problems.

As a pro user of both Apple(Logic Pro/PowerMac G5) and mLan(Yamaha 01x) equipment it has been very frustrating for me to see the (seemingly) lack of action taken after a numerous well documented bugs/shortfalls has emerged. If Apple will continue to be an important player in the pro audio segment, you have to take actions on these very serious faults.

Sincerely

Al

Hello all-

As apple discussions is currently set up, it is not designed as a means to communicate directly with apple employees. Some of them do exist, but there are very few of what you might describe as moderators. The discussions page is designed for user-to-user communications.

Be that as it may, and since so many people are affected by this issue, I would be glad to submit a bug report to apple on the issue. Any member of the apple developers connection can do so via the web. Whether this will help or not, I have no idea. I am not more able to escalate the issue in terms of apple fixing it than you.

Since I do not use mLan, and consequently do not suffer from this issue, an affected member will have to post the issue in the description format required by apple engineering. It follows as such:

Summary:
Provide a descriptive summary of the issue.

Steps to Reproduce:
In numbered format, detail the exact steps taken to produce the bug.

Expected Results:
Describe what you expected to happen when you executed the steps above.

Actual Results:
Please explain what actually occurred when steps above are executed.

Regression:
Describe circumstances where the problem occurs or does not occur, such as software versions and/or hardware configurations.

Notes:
Provide additional information, such as references to related problems, workarounds and relevant attachments.

I will then post the issue to the ADC bug reporter and inform the forum of any responses.


--Justin S.

actually, I'd like a response, without one we have no idea if anyone is listening.

on the off chance that an Apple employee is monitoring this discussion area, please feel free to contact me @ michaelhuisman@mac.com.

I'm willing to pay for paid support if an actual dialog of a> know issue, workaround is, or workaround doesn't exist, we're going to fix it, or we're not going to fix it.

Seems only proper from a customer point of view - I'm heavily invested in Apple and Yamaha gear... as many of us are!

Second that !

I really do think in these particular circumstances we're entitled to a comment from Apple as to A: whether or not they're aware of the problems the drivers they're apparently responsible for are giving mLan users, and B: whether or not they intend, eventually, to fix them ... if we're told by a company with the degree of prestige that Apple has that they do intend to fix them, then I guess we have to accept that it'll be 'as and when', depending on their priorities; but if they don't feel that mLan warrants any more time spent by their engineers, then we're d*mn well entitled to know that too.

I'm only one user, but if I don't hear some news regarding these driver issues soon, this will be the sole reason that causes me to purchase a non-Apple laptop ... when I would much rather purchase a Macbook Pro.

If any Apple staff with the relevant knowledge do happen to see this thread, do the decent thing - at least acknowledge these issues ...



G5 Dual 2.7, MacMini, iMac 700; P4/XP Desk & Lap. Mac OS X (10.4.6) mLan:01x/i88x; DP 5.1, Cubase SX3, Melodyne.

G5 Dual 2.7, MacMini, iMac 700; P4/XP Desk & Lap. Mac OS X (10.4.6) mLan:01x/i88x; DP 5.1, Cubase SX3, Melodyne.

G5 Dual 2.7, MacMini, iMac 700; P4/XP Desk & Lap. Mac OS X (10.4.6) mLan:01x/i88x; DP 5.1, Cubase SX3, Melodyne.

I hope I'm not hijacking this thread, but I'm about to purchase a Yamaha i88x mLan audio interface and want to make sure the unit works! Do these bugs in mLAN support make units like the i88x unusable? Should I not buy this unit?

It depnds on many factors.

The i88x hardware is good, and it works fine on XP and OS9.

The limitations with the OSX drivers may, or may not be a problem.

They will be a problem if you absolutely need to sync to an external wordclock or if you have multiple devices and need to patch some of the higher number inputs on the second device (such as 2 x i88x's using ADAT).

The other issues with the OSX drivers such as random offset and reordering of the connections are a pain in the butt, but are unlikely to stop you making music.

When, and if the drivers ever get fixed, then mLAN will be great on OSX, and even now, it works in a lot of cases. It is important to understand the current limitation on OSX before purchasing, as we still have no guarantee that they will be fixed on this platform.

Also, note that I don't think that this issue is isolated to mLAN. The recent release of the Apogee Ensemble also appears to have some limitations with 10.4.7 and I wouldn't be surprised if some of these issues have a common cause, though this is pure conjecture on my part.

The latest drivers for XP work very, very well.

the i88x is amazing. extremely high quality I/O. the mic pre's are among the best out there.

It's also really easy to add something like a Behringer to add 8 more in/out via the ADAT interface...

here's what the unit doesn't do... - mixing. that happens in your mac or in something like an 01X.

some other things to consider... you'll need power... something like a MOTU traveler doesn't...

it's a tough call...

Puppeteer (and Elmer, if you happen to be skimming),

I'll get round to posting more about following on 01xRay when I've had time to do some more tests, but I'm beginning to think that CoreAudio itself has a part to play in the Random Offset issue within OS X - because I've now found that using NI's Kore (2 in 4 out USB2, 44.1/48/96 kHz, 24 bit) with DP also gives me a semi-random offset - it's odd, not the same behaviour as mLan, but equally as unpredictable, and would need checking every load for sample accurate offset compensation, as is currently the case with mLan on OS X. And when I tried mLan as an 'Aggregate' sound device along with my G5's built in audio, I got much more unpredictable offsets, even within a single load of mLan - which would be hopeless for professional use !

I've also got M-Audio USB and FireWire cross-platform devices/drivers, and one or two others on my PCs; as well as SX3, which is cross platform where DP isn't; I really want to do a complete series of loopback tests on all my devices/DAWs/platforms for comparison, when I can find the time - because I'm really beginning to wonder what sort of results I'm going to get with OS X ... !

Nevertheless, I still love my 01x/i88x/DP/G5 combination - and the fact that Elmer's efforts have at least procured us a response from Apple (see 01xRay forum) stating that they are aware of the mLan issues within OS X leaves us hope that we might eventually see them cleared up.

Here's hoping ...

Andrew Wilde.



G5 Dual 2.7, MacMini, iMac 700; P4/XP Desk & Lap. Mac OS X (10.4.6) mLan:01x/i88x; DP 5.1, Cubase SX3, Melodyne.

G5 Dual 2.7, MacMini, iMac 700; P4/XP Desk & Lap. Mac OS X (10.4.6) mLan:01x/i88x; DP 5.1, Cubase SX3, Melodyne.