Previous 1 89 90 91 92 93 Next 1,456 Replies Latest reply: Nov 30, 2014 2:39 AM by piddyman Go to original post Branched to a new discussion.
  • peter_watt Level 3 Level 3 (905 points)

    "Just thought of this:

     

    if I want to backup iPhoto library to the cloud (Amazon Glacier for example) - will it work?"

     

    You can backup any file to any cloud system but files measured in tens of gigabytes could take days and cost real money, and being a monolythic database, recovering a photo would require the entire library to be downloaded back again.  Keep cloud backups to individual photostream.

  • davidhq Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hmm yes but as we talked iPhoto supposedly uses some HFS+ specific features... that's why it's not a good idea to try to back it up to NTFS for example... I was wondering about doing it to the cloud... if the former is true, then there might be issues with that as well...

  • Allan Eckert Level 8 Level 8 (46,735 points)

    I did testing of online backup solutions. When I attempted to restore a test library from both iPhoto and also from Aperture, I found that neither of the restored library worked correctly.

     

    After doing further study on this it was my conclusion that the reason for the restored libaries to not work properly was exactly that it lacked many of the HFS+ features with the online backups. This appears to be the cause much of the lose of the metadata and adjustments.

     

    I don't know about you but I think paying for a backup solution that is not able to return a working version of a library is basically paying for nothing. The metadata and adjustments for me are nearly as important as the photos themselves.

     

    Allan

  • davidhq Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    ok so it doesn't work...

     

    If I decide to use some cloud backup service I'll just accept that photo library won't come back the way I need/want it to.. well at least photos will.. but in any case I'll have enough local backups.. in 0.01% chance I need to retrieve the online backup, I'll just live with loosing metadata.

  • StephenCCH Level 1 Level 1 (45 points)

    Why not just create a zip file of your photo library/s and backup that online instead of the actual library? or something similar to that, so that you keep all the metadata etc. intact.

     

    It all depends on how large your library is and what tools you have at your disposal but I am sure there is something that can archive the library into a portable solution for online backup, with no loss of Mac specific information.

     

    Then you could just write an AppleScript (if you know how) to automate the process.

     

    Just thought I would think out loud here and hopefully it can help you find a solution.

  • e2photo Level 2 Level 2 (165 points)

    I am sort curious as to why you trying to fit a square peg into a circle hole.  Buy a couple of backup drives, format them as HSF, backUp and archive and be done with it. 

     

    And if you have something you want to keep, even if there is only a 0.01% chance of failure, why would you ever take the risk, given to very low cost of backUp. 

     

    Cloud backup is expensive and not in your control.

     

    Just my thoughts. 

  • GetRealBro Level 1 Level 1 (5 points)

    peter_watt wrote:

    .... As said many times there is no problem with Mavericks and single external drives provided you do not and never have installed Utility crapware that came on the disk.

    It would be nice if that were true, but it is not.

     

    As I have documented in gory detail (in this thread), even when you "do not and never have installed Utilty crapware on the disk", Mavericks can and does on occsaion leave directory stuctures "dirty" when an external drive is unmounted. The result when the drive is subsequnelty mounted is a long fsck-hfs run (think minutes), during which Disk Utility will report that the drive is not repairable.

     

    In my view this constitutes a "problem with Maverics and single extrenal drives". But maybe I'm just to picky to expect Mavericks to not leave the directory structures "dirrty" when unmounted using OS X standard procedures. And at the very least for the Mavericks' Disk Utility to tell the truth about the condition of an external drive.

     

    ---GetRealBro

  • ankhank Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    It's not just WD.  I promise you that.

     

    I have been trying several external Firewire ( Fujitsu and Seagate) drives long used with my Pismo (OSX 10.4.11) and they're suddenly being very confusing to my Intel (2011 MBP) Mac since I installed Mavericks on it -- yet these always worked before interchangeably on any Mac with a Firewire port.

     

    Does this mean anything to anybody?  I see this in Console:

     

    4/11/14 7:28:17.901 PM Disk Utility[10764]: 10.4-style NSNumberFormatter method called on a 10.0-style formatter, which doesn't work. Break on _NSNumberFormatter_Log_New_Methods_On_Old_Formatters to debug. This message will only be logged once.

     

      The drives are shown empty or not detected, unless they're the only drive on the Firewire port -- if there's no other Firewire drive attached, they usually work but don't reliably copy files -- I've been trying to collect files going back years on various old small hard drives, as I get ready to recycle the various old computers (going back to old SCSI drives from early Powerbooks, in fact, but haven't dealt with those at all yet -- these are all from either Powerbook 150s (ATA/IDE) or more recent Macs.

  • Drew Reece Level 5 Level 5 (5,035 points)

    StephenCCH wrote:

    Why not just create a zip file of your photo library/s and backup that online instead of the actual library? or something similar to that, so that you keep all the metadata etc. intact.

     

    It's could be a reasonable workaround, but you will not compress jpg's very much, so a 'zipped library' will almost double your local storage needs. Combine the hours to compress a large library with the fact that zip may not backup all the features that iPhoto uses it doesn't seem quite so viable. Disk images may enclose more HFS+ specific data, but that also needs testing & doubles your storage needs…

     

    e2photo wrote:

    I am sort curious as to why you trying to fit a square peg into a circle hole.  Buy a couple of backup drives, format them as HSF, backUp and archive and be done with it.

     

    And if you have something you want to keep, even if there is only a 0.01% chance of failure, why would you ever take the risk, given to very low cost of backUp.

     

    Cloud backup is expensive and not in your control.

     

    Just my thoughts.

     

    I suspect davidhq is taking a 'belts & braces' approach to backup. Having local HFS+ disks OK until you consider fire, theft or any other 'act of god' that removes access to your building/ backup cupboard. Offsite backups are essential (in addition to local copies) and using a cloud server is one easy way to do this.

     

    The alternative to established cloud services is to set up your own Mac server to run SSH/ rsync for backups - most other OS's don't correctly support the HFS+ disk journal. It is pathetic if Apple's own application data cannot be backed up to other OS's or filesystems.

     

     

    It would be really helpful if anyone had some actual links to Apple documents that state what 'HFS only' filesystem features iPhoto libraries use.

    'Metadata' is a meaningless term - it covers too many possible features (Finder comments, Spotlight metadata, extended attributes… some people also use it to mean filename & creation dates etc!).

     

    All I have been able to find is the iPhoto: FAT32 note, it only suggests 'Performance & data loss' issues on FAT 32 volumes. It suggests iPhoto libraries can work on other filesystems, but Apple's poor use of language doesn't explicitly state it won't work. (Isn't it just trying to say FAT32 is a bit crappy?)

     

     

    Personally I have been using Arq for offsite copies, which encrypts and stores on Amazon S3/ glacier. In theory it captures & restores all metadata. It passed the 'backup bouncer' test suite when I tried it a few years ago. It encrypts all the metadata it should remove the dependence on one specific filesystem type.

    https://github.com/n8gray/Backup-Bouncer

    http://www.n8gray.org/code/backup-bouncer/

    The BB test suite is getting old now

     

     

    Testing will be the only way to see what works & what doesn't in the absence of real facts from Apple. davidhq, I'd create a new thread that explicitly asks …

     

    What are the filesystem requirements for iPhoto library backups - can any non HFS+ journalled disks be used for backup storage and can it be used to restore correctly?

     

     

    P.S. (@davidhq, apologies for not replying sooner, things got busy here, and I only have an older iPhoto '08 library to test).

  • e2photo Level 2 Level 2 (165 points)

    When I used the term archive, I meant off site storage.  Make up two local backups to an HFS drives, and take one to an offsite safe location.  Once a month (or at an interval of your choosing), pick up the archive drive, backup, and return to the offsite location.  Fixed cost.

     

    Once a particular drive is full and is not in need of regular backup, the archive drive can be checked for functionality every 6 months or so.  Again, a fixed cost and very secure.

     

    So I am wondering what it would cost me to store 25 TB of data yearly, how long would it take to set up the initial cloud save, and how would I go about verifying the data held on the cloud drive is intact and a functional copy on a regular basis.

  • Allan Eckert Level 8 Level 8 (46,735 points)

    Well, that might be your definition of archive but as far as I know no one else defines it that way. So if you continue to use archive in that manner you are going to have to continue to explain yourself because no one will understand you.

     

    Personally I would suggest that you refer to it as the remote backup drive.

     

    Allan

  • e2photo Level 2 Level 2 (165 points)

    http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/A/archive.html

     

    Not perfectly identical to my use of the term, but close.  Conceptually the same.  Many similar kinds of definitions all over the web.

  • Drew Reece Level 5 Level 5 (5,035 points)

    e2photo wrote:

     

    So I am wondering what it would cost me to store 25 TB of data yearly, how long would it take to set up the initial cloud save, and how would I go about verifying the data held on the cloud drive is intact and a functional copy on a regular basis.

    Your own system could be cheaper until you factor in the cost of your own time & hardware outlay. I have also used 'manual offsite backups' as you describe, it just gets painful if you can't keep the routine going. How often are you carrying 25TB of data around?

     

    Amazon Glacier starts aroung $0.01 GB/month (transfer in). You have to put up with time limitations on restoring (3-5 hour wait) but it is very cheap IMO. There are additional costs for retreival (Amazon call it 'data out to internet'), but they also seem resonable…

    http://aws.amazon.com/glacier/pricing/

     

     

    With optical broadband becoming more popular it can be practical to roll your own server for backups at a freinds or family members house, but who wants the hassle (and open firewall ports)?

     

    It will probably take you all year to backup a 25TB of data to the internet, even physical disks will be a pain with that much data.

     

    I think we are talking about 'iPhoto library sizes' e.g. from a few GB to several hundred GB (i.e. not more than fits on an internal Mac disk).

  • davidhq Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Hi Drew and e2photo,

     

    Yes I want to be protected against fire and similar catastrophes.

     

    I do have multiple local backups and an option to keep some copies offsite but this has problems:

    I don't feel like keeping offsite copies up to date ... esp. because I might be travelling a lot soon and for example wouldn't come home for 3-6 months and then all data would be with me (on computer and external drive).

    Even if I was at home it would be a trade-off between convenience and having up to date copies. I wouldn't want to do this more than every 3 months or so and if something happens in between I loose last 3 months of data.

     

    I agree with e2photo that local backups are still more convenient and cheaper than the cloud. That's why I have relied on these so far but I want to add cloud to the mix and most likely not for all the data (for example not for movies)... but for photos and some other important things.

     

    I will test and investigate more about backing up iPhoto to the cloud then... So zipping would retain all data if I understand correctly? Even if it did, it's not perfect because my iPhoto library is around 50GB and it would probably have to be uploaded completelly on each small change... normal backup is supposed to be incremental.. but as I said: I have to see exactly what information is lost by doing "normal" backups to the cloud... since I don't expect to really need this except in the event of catastrophe, I can live with getting just photos back without metadata (whatever this means in this case).

     

    At the end I'll probably use everything! Local backups, offsite backup updated once every 6 months and a cloud.

  • e2photo Level 2 Level 2 (165 points)

    One thing to consider is just transfer your primary digital files (outside of the iPhoto Library Structure) to the cloud.  At least those would be intact.  Am curious about the zip experience as to whether that protects the library structure.  My guess would be yes, but don't really know.

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