Q: Netflix quality HORRID after update

Bob Hickman wrote:

 

Vandergraff,

 

What is Limelight?  How did you get your ATV to start using Limelight instead of nflxvideo?  How did you figure that out?

 

Thanks,

Bob

Limelight is one of the CDNs (Content Delivery Networks) Netflix uses to deliver content to us.

I didn't change it - presumably Netflix did when they fixed the issue for many - but unfortunately not all - a couple of weeks ago.

Some routers allow you to see active connection so you can see which CDN your Apple TV is connected to.

Bob Hickman wrote:

What is Limelight?

Google Limelight networks.

How did you get your ATV to start using Limelight instead of nflxvideo?

You can't.  The CDN decision is made by Netflix.

I did two things:

- went to the live chat on the website and gave them the link to this thread and asked them to escalate to the engineers

- went on Twitter and mentioned this link to @netflix and @netflixhelps along with the note"50k+ users experiencing this problem" (because this thread now has over 50k views - that's insane!)

If everyone reading this did one of the above, the issue would get addressed. Please give it a shot: they don't consider something a problem until the same thing is experienced by X number of users.

Kirby

Earlier today – absolutely crazy.

Maybe some of the technical geeks would be interested in the following post I made an iPad thread.

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5732202

Maybe somebody could even explain it.

I was finally getting HD about a week ago, but lately, it dropes to VHS quality. How many people does it take before something is done, this discussion is up too 63 pages and yet to see anything on the various Apple sites or blogs. Guess I keep using my Roku or iPad.

As an interesting data point, I tested my ATV using my verizon mifi 4G LTE. I get 20 down and 8 up. I was able to steam at 5800 Kbps. 

Connect back to my TWC ISP  here in San Diego, and back to under 1080 Kbps.  I still place the blame on the ATV netflix app.   Now we just have to figure out how to get someone at Netflix to listen to us. 

After much experimenting the past few evenings, I am convinced this is *not* anything to do with ATV, but rather is Netflix' service, as many have concluded.  My setup is:  FIOS 75/35, verified on multiple occasions during the evenings at 75-80Mbps download and 25+ upload (speedtest.net).  Running ATV 3 (I think) v6.0.2 and a TiVo Premier 4.  All hard-wired Ethernet to the FIOS router which is in the same room.  I tried Netflix on both ATV and the TiVo, and both have the same issue - SD playback on Netflix content (Lilyhammer and Miss Fischer Mysteries) on *both* devices.  However, the ATV can stream HBO Go, Youtube, and Vimeo HD content at obviously HD quality (though I have no concrete measurement to confirm, there is no comparison to the quality between Netflix and the others).  Further, Netflix would rarely run 5 minutes of streaming w/o stopping to buffer, stuttering the video and/or stopping the sound.  This was occasionally an issue in our previous FIOS location in a nearby town 6 months ago (June), but never as often or as bad as it is now.  (We had a 6 month hiatus with Xfinity in an apt.)

rich1383 wrote:

 

After much experimenting the past few evenings, I am convinced this is *not* anything to do with ATV, but rather is Netflix' service, as many have concluded.

If you read this thread it's obvious you've drawn the wrong conclustion.  You don't even have read the entire thread.  The last few pages are sufficient.

Talked to a netflix online support person (Brandon) about this issue and he said

"Alright so it looks like this is a known issue right now and we are doing everything we can to get this fixed up for our customers. I really appreciate your patience with us while we deal with this and I assure you my team will get this resolved ASAP. Something within the some of the devices on the east coast and our servers just aren't talking, but no worries, we've got our best minds working their tails off to get this fixed up. "

Hope he really knows what he is talking about.

But I have a feeling that the support person is confused with another issue currenly happening on netflix and he thought our Apple TV issue is the same problem:

We are currently experiencing issues streaming on all devices.

We are working to resolve the problem. We apologize for any inconvenience.

bodosom wrote:

 

rich1383 wrote:

 

After much experimenting the past few evenings, I am convinced this is *not* anything to do with ATV, but rather is Netflix' service, as many have concluded.

If you read this thread it's obvious you've drawn the wrong conclustion.  You don't even have read the entire thread.  The last few pages are sufficient.

There may be two different problems with Netflix.

1. Quite a few posters here get good quality, but not consistently, and peak traffic hours see much higher degree of degradation on the same software ATV versions as they were using when they had good quality video. It is indicative of a bad/over-aggressive/buggy Adaptive/Variable Bit Rate Management algorithm and an over-sensitive QoS implementation. This would require an Apple/Netflix software fix.

2. Some regions may be geographically tied to Netflix CDN endpoints that have internal issues because of intervening network nodes/hops which makes problem #1 much worse. There is not much Apple/Netflix can do for this problem. Customers can work with their respective ISPs to address such issues.

@BobH... Very nice LTE test results.

I think I probably have two issues. I definitely have the ATV issue, as it went to crap the same time many others on here did, and there are many times I have tested other devices at the same time with much better resolution. However, I now often have times when nothing works well - usually during prime time. Last night, ATV was playing at 320, so I switched to my iPhone, which was better, but definitely did not hold the stream at the phone's highest resolution for the entire viewing. For the most part, Netflix is now just watched by children in my household.

Loner T wrote:

There may be two different problems with Netflix.

 

There may be lots of problems with Netflix but the OP, based on the problem, called this thread "HORRID after update".  Other people have observed the same problem. As I replied to you yesterday:

Don't forget that for people with this problem:

1. All other ATV streaming is fine.
2. All other (non-ATV) clients are fine.

 

If that's not the case it's a different problem.

There are lots of posts in this thread that suggest they "have the answer" or "it's fixed".  Since nearly all of them have no supporting information they can reflect any transient change of circustance.

Loner T wrote:

1. Quite a few posters here get good quality, but not consistently, and peak traffic hours see much higher degree of degradation on the same software ATV versions as they were using when they had good quality video. It is indicative of a bad/over-aggressive/buggy Adaptive/Variable Bit Rate Management algorithm and an over-sensitive QoS implementation. This would require an Apple/Netflix software fix.

Yes, we drew a similar conclusion some time ago.

Loner T wrote:

2. Some regions may be geographically tied to Netflix CDN endpoints that have internal issues because of intervening network nodes/hops which makes problem #1 much worse. There is not much Apple/Netflix can do for this problem. Customers can work with their respective ISPs to address such issues.

This is the wrong conclusion.  If only the ATV is having problems with the same CDN, which is what is happening in the case of the problem this thread is about, then of course Apple/Netflix are responsible and are the only parties that can resolve the issue.  Netflix (possibly with Apples help) just needs to make the ATV client behave the same as the iPad client.

bodosom wrote:

 

This is the wrong conclusion.  If only the ATV is having problems with the same CDN, which is what is happening in the case of the problem this thread is about, then of course Apple/Netflix are responsible and are the only parties that can resolve the issue.  Netflix (possibly with Apples help) just needs to make the ATV client behave the same as the iPad client.

There are device-specific decisions made within the same CDN "domain" which may indicate a CDN+Device specific problem. Other devices accessing this "domain" may still remain relatively unaffected.

Assuming that two or more devices from a customer (same ISP public address) have affinity to the same CDN cluster, which then internally handles device types (for example an iPad vs ATV3) differently, it should lead to different behaviour for each device. For example, I get 720p/3000kbps on my iPad vs 1080p/5800kbps on ATV3.  Do you agree?

I have a new ATV3 and have the same issue.  Fortunately the temporary workaround is to stream 720P on my iPhone 5 then airplay the signal with Dolby Digital to my ATV.  I have spent countless hours on the phone with Netflix and a little time with Apple.  My experience of 15 years as a Internet Network Design Engineer and the last 10 Cable ISPs leads me to the only logical conclusion that this is an issue with the NetFlix App on ATV. The App is way to sensitive to changes in traffic speeds and potential packet loss to bursty traffic patterns that occur in Video Networks. 

Quality is definitely better early in the morning which would substantiate the fact that this is in fact a congestion issues.  Anyone that has ever worked with TCP/IP knows about TCP slow start and the effect it causes when you have repeated pack loss or delays.  This reminds me very much of this kind of problem.  I have explained this to Netflix and perhaps my argument holds some weight since I recently filed a bug with Netflix engineering regarding the PS4 not doing Dolby Digital.  Netflix was able to replicate the issue with me on the phone and is in the process of fixing the PS4 Dolby Digital Bug.