The Art Of Sound
Level 6 (12,117 points)

Q: Information on 2013 iMac FD issue / USB2-3 Issue and Driver Incompatibility issue

I've created this new thread to outline the THREE different issues currently being discussed in various threads here and elsewhere in the hope of clarifying a few things and cleaning the 'mess' up a little!

 

There are currently THREE specific and different issues that a Mac owner might have in relation to Audio problems.

 

Some Users may well have all three problems at the same time or a combination of any/all of them.

 

Issue #1 - If you own a 2013 iMac with a Fusion Drive fitted then you wil get audio dropouts, clicks and other audio issues.

 

To test, unplug all 3rd party interfaces and test with internal Audio only.  Most people report audio dropout and noise via internal Audio.

 

Status - Wating on a software fix from Apple.

 

Possible temporary workaround options -

 

1) Boot from an External HD, (Very effective with a high reported success rate) and wait until fix is issued by Apple.

2) Split the FD into separate SSD and Mech Drives... (Fairly effective... but not as good as the ext drive menthod it seems)  and wait for fix from Apple.

3) Contact Apple and ask for a non FD replacement iMac (when/if possible)

4) Wait for the Apple Fix

 

Issue #2 = If you use a USB2 device/interface/whatever and it is connected to a USB3 port then that device might have problems.

 

Note: This issue does not affect Firewire devices for obvious reasons...

 

Possible Workarounds - Note: Users have reported varying levels of success with these fixes depending on the USB2 device in question. and what else is connected to your Mac.

 

1) Use a USB2 powered hub. Connect device to powered hub and connect powered hub to USB3 port

 

2) Use a Thunderbolt hub. Conect device to TBolt hub and hub to TBolt port on Mac.

 

Status - Waiting on fixes from the makers of these USB2 devices to correct the problem where possible.

 

Issue #3 - Incompatible drivers/hardware with either 10.9 and/or 10.8. Affects mainly audio interfaces that use drivers to communicate with your Mac... but can also affect USB2 Midi interfaces and Audio interfaces those that are supposed to be 'class compliant' and therefore do not use drivers... Class compliant devices have been fixed in the past by firmware updates whenever possible, by the makers of the device. In some cases however, makers of certain USB2 devices have not been able to correct the issue and have released new versions of their hardware to reolve issue (which of course were not provided as free replacements for users with these probmatic devices!)

 

Workaround

 

Roll back to previous working OS X version whenever possible and wait for updated drivers from Maker of your device.

 

Status - Awaiting updated drivers from the Makers of the USB2 device.

 

As can be seen from the above list, it is possible that certain users who have a 2013 imac with an FD fitted and own a USB2 interface could be subject to all three issues... and you should be keenly aware of this fact. When Apple release a fix for Issue #1 you may still have problems relating to either/both Issue #2 and #3... depending on the USB2 device you own....

 

Important Note:

 

Please feel free to ask questions regarding these three issues and their descriptions but try not to clutter up the thread with other problems or posts regarding comments such as  "Why isn't Apple/Maker of device fixing this?"  or "I'll switch to "Name of other DAW" if this isnt fixed soon..."  as frankly no one here cares about such things as none of us work for Apple

 

Thanks!

Logic Pro X, OS X Mavericks (10.9), Motu UltraLite V3

Posted on Dec 12, 2013 2:59 PM

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The Art Of Sound

Q: Information on 2013 iMac FD issue / USB2-3 Issue and Driver Incompatibility issue

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  • by The Art Of Sound,

    The Art Of Sound The Art Of Sound Dec 19, 2013 9:22 PM in response to megastep
    Level 6 (12,117 points)
    Dec 19, 2013 9:22 PM in response to megastep

    But I'm starting to shop for a suitable non-FW replacement.

     

    Unless you are looking at TB interfaces.. I would highly recommend you stay away from USB2 or 3 interfaces at this time.... and stick to good, well supported FW ones... such as the Motu range...

     

    But of course, the choice is yours.....

  • by Pancenter,

    Pancenter Pancenter Dec 19, 2013 10:04 PM in response to megastep
    Level 6 (10,039 points)
    Audio
    Dec 19, 2013 10:04 PM in response to megastep

    Could also be the fact that you have two drives daisy chained, have you tried removing the drives as an experiment.

     

    USB is an inferior protocol for Audio, that's there's a lot of incompatibility right now.

  • by megastep,

    megastep megastep Dec 19, 2013 10:59 PM in response to Pancenter
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 19, 2013 10:59 PM in response to Pancenter

    That is a good point, and it turned out that I had actually put the Profire at the end of the chain (and not at the beginning). So it was after 2 FW drives, though I had never had any issues with this setup before on my previous iMac.

     

    I tried to remove the drives and let the interface by itself, and it seemed to almost work for almost 2 minutes before it got the dreaded FireWire message and all audio output stopped.

  • by Pancenter,

    Pancenter Pancenter Dec 19, 2013 11:21 PM in response to megastep
    Level 6 (10,039 points)
    Audio
    Dec 19, 2013 11:21 PM in response to megastep

    megastep wrote:

     

    I tried to remove the drives and let the interface by itself, and it seemed to almost work for almost 2 minutes before it got the dreaded FireWire message and all audio output stopped.

     

    Yes, and that's completely normal if you have a Fusion Drive.Apple's software that controls the FD is conflicting with all audio interfaces and even the system audio on some machines. Apple is aware of the problem and working on a fix. You should take a look at the Thread Art of Sound posted a few messages back. Sounds to me like your interface would be fine if you weren't using a Fusion Drive, it's a Known Problem and it is affecting a LOT of people.

  • by megastep,

    megastep megastep Dec 19, 2013 11:37 PM in response to Pancenter
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 19, 2013 11:37 PM in response to Pancenter

    Yeah, I have read this but I'm skeptical there is a direct correlation (let alone causation) with the Fusion Drive. I do have one and I'm not going to let it go.

     

    FYI, on my system I also have a cheap USB audio interface (along with a bunch of USB devices) and it's working just fine right now. Nor have I had any issues with the internal system audio. So if anything, it's more likely interference between the I/O and the FireWire/Thunderbolt subsystems. Has anybody actually had similar issues with a USB interface? Because I can pretty much guarantee you won't see a FireWire system error like what I'm experiencing...

     

    Not saying that the symptoms are not more apparent with a Fusion Drive but I'm betting the problem is a little more subtle than that (and I speak as a developer). And really hoping that Apple can address this sooner than later if it's a really widespread issue that can be fixed in software.

  • by Pancenter,

    Pancenter Pancenter Dec 20, 2013 12:12 AM in response to megastep
    Level 6 (10,039 points)
    Audio
    Dec 20, 2013 12:12 AM in response to megastep

    megastep wrote:

     

    Yeah, I have read this but I'm skeptical there is a direct correlation (let alone causation) with the Fusion Drive. I do have one and I'm not going to let it go.

     

     

    The software that controls the Fusion drive, it's just a small ssd and and a standard HD linked by Apples software.

     

    Two minutes time before the Interface craps out is common and is almost always corrected by splitting the drive into separate components.

     

    If you take the link that Art of Sound posted you will see a higher number of USB problems vs Firewire problems.

     

    good luck-

  • by adam swink,

    adam swink adam swink Dec 20, 2013 1:50 PM in response to Pancenter
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 20, 2013 1:50 PM in response to Pancenter

    Update!!!

     

    I have a source who tells me 10.9.2 beta has fixed his USB interfaces:

     

    - Signalink USB

    - Plantronics USB

     

    Does anyone have access to 10.9.2 and a Firewire > Thunderbolt audio interface that can confirm this is fixed as well?

  • by The Art Of Sound,

    The Art Of Sound The Art Of Sound Dec 20, 2013 2:22 PM in response to adam swink
    Level 6 (12,117 points)
    Dec 20, 2013 2:22 PM in response to adam swink

    Hi Adam!

     

    Maybe....

     

    In regards to Issue #2... One of my clients is running the Dev copy of 10.9.2 and is getting mixed results with different USB devices..... There isn't anything listed in the release notes regarding USB and Audio so, at the moment, who knows...

     

    As for Issue #1...There is nothing listed either in the release notes,  in regards to the 2013 iMac and FD issue....but again, maybe the notes are not complete... Time will tell...

  • by adam swink,

    adam swink adam swink Dec 22, 2013 4:54 PM in response to The Art Of Sound
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 22, 2013 4:54 PM in response to The Art Of Sound

    I have another source who has confirmed that the next beta has indeed fixed a Firewire > Thunderbolt audio interface. Can't release any more info on it,  but this is looking very promising.

     

    However, XCellMusic, says his Apogee Duet is not working:

    https://discussions.apple.com/thread/5484036?start=150&tstart=0

  • by The Art Of Sound,

    The Art Of Sound The Art Of Sound Dec 22, 2013 6:01 PM in response to adam swink
    Level 6 (12,117 points)
    Dec 22, 2013 6:01 PM in response to adam swink

    Adam,

     

    As far as i know there is no problem using the TBolt to FW adaptor.. I'm using one here without issue in 10.9.1.... with a FW Ultralite..

     

    Whats the issue that you are refering to?

  • by adam swink,

    adam swink adam swink Dec 22, 2013 6:32 PM in response to The Art Of Sound
    Level 1 (0 points)
    Dec 22, 2013 6:32 PM in response to The Art Of Sound

    I'm referring to Issue #1. There are a lot of people with the Fusion Drive that are experiencing Firewire > Thunderbolt with audio dropouts as well... Including myself.

  • by The Art Of Sound,

    The Art Of Sound The Art Of Sound Dec 22, 2013 6:48 PM in response to adam swink
    Level 6 (12,117 points)
    Dec 22, 2013 6:48 PM in response to adam swink

    Ah.. but Issue #1 has nothing to do with the FW to TBolt adaptor itself.. because it affects every type of Audio Device (USB2/3... FW... and TBolt) let alone any adaptors... as well as built in audio too...

     

    In other words... If your iMac had a FW port rather than having to use the FW-TBolt adaptor... you would get the same issue.... as the FD issue affects every kind of audio device.

  • by The Art Of Sound,

    The Art Of Sound The Art Of Sound Dec 22, 2013 6:52 PM in response to The Art Of Sound
    Level 6 (12,117 points)
    Dec 22, 2013 6:52 PM in response to The Art Of Sound

    Also,

     

    I currently have a 2013 iMac with FD fitted here... ("Borrowed" from one of my clients) with a FW interface (Motu) connected via a FW to TBolt adaptor.. and the latest Dev release of 10.9.2 build 13C32, that came out on the 19th Dec..  makes no difference whatsoever.... to the FD issue.

  • by cdanr,

    cdanr cdanr Dec 22, 2013 7:02 PM in response to The Art Of Sound
    Level 1 (20 points)
    Dec 22, 2013 7:02 PM in response to The Art Of Sound

    There may be several different symptoms of the FD/audio issues because I can report from a source with 10.9.2 that it has massively improved input freezes with a USB audio device configured as the output device as well as random lockups that would occur when an iPhone was connected to the machine.

     

    By improved I mean that in extensive testing thus far they haven't managed to freeze it once where it would previously do so within minutes. Obviously, it's far too early to call it a cure but it's very encouraging.

  • by The Art Of Sound,

    The Art Of Sound The Art Of Sound Dec 22, 2013 7:06 PM in response to cdanr
    Level 6 (12,117 points)
    Dec 22, 2013 7:06 PM in response to cdanr

    cdanr,

     

    That will likely be the USB2/3 issue... and not the FD issue that they are refering to....

     

    Its easy to get the two mixed up because actually the symptoms are much the same.... though the cause, of course, is very different.

     

    The iPhone problem is something else entirely....

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