Previous 1 6 7 8 9 10 Next 246 Replies Latest reply: Jul 26, 2014 3:39 AM by thomas_r. Go to original post Branched to a new discussion.
  • CanadianBacon67 Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    As unbelievable as it seems, after reading 7 pages of this discussion thread, not one person has stated the obvious; NO ONE on here (myself included), has the first clue about what is actually happening in regards to the NSA, or anything else.  Much like political ad campaigns, religious debates, or the search for extraterrestrial life, you're simply giving your opinions.  You can say nothing with certainty, yet you not only make self assured pronouncements, but resort to personal attacks (again, much like the religious and political "debates" that people engage in). 

    I do know this; Chancellor Merkel's cellphone WAS tapped by the NSA, and she was blissfully ignorant until Jacob Applebaum and his colleagues informed Der Spiegel.  President Obama (to his credit) 'fessed up, but if her communications were breached, what chance do you and I have?

    It's obvious that people like Assange, Applebaum, and Snowden could only have the merest glimpse of what goes on in an agency as far reaching as the NSA; and it's equally obvious that their information is woefully out of date. 

    Rather than dismissing or attacking each other, why not do some research?  Stimulate an intelligent, thoughtful discussion?   I don't mean copying and pasting worthless opinion pieces, I mean honest to God research; Surveillance photos of NSA activities and files.  Folders of Apple's senior executive skunk work projects (if any).  A detailed blueprint by an independent third party which explains EXACTLY what every component of those servers mentioned in Applebaum's presentation actually do. You know.  Facts. 

    I had never heard of Jacob Applebaum until a few hours ago, but some research has turned up some interesting stories about him.   He has been the target of harassment by the military and other agencies for several years.  Why?  He made an offhand joke during his presentation about the NSA finally catching up with the KGB.  He may have been more accurate than he realized.  The KGB had a state sponsored program for many years where people who "outed" their neighbors for not following the Communist Party policies were rewarded.  If what he alleges is true, then this is simply the digital age's method of controlling the population.  Certainly nothing new.  A trivial comparison, but in 1972, the Soviet Union even cut the televised feed of the Canada USSR hockey series when Canada drew even in the third period.  For many years, Soviet citizens were convinced that they had won the series. 

    In closing, please take the time to support your theories with actual verifiable data.  It should be fairly simple to procure a server USB jack, cut off the end, and take it apart to look for this RFID attachment that he refers to.  Not finding it, however, doesn't disprove his allegations; merely that it doesn't exist in that particular USB plug.  And that's the devil of it; until someone produces a Dell server with an anomalous chipset that can be proven to perform the feats that Applebaum ascribes to it, the naysayers will say nay, and the tin hatters will make hats. 

    Is Jacob Applebaum trying to open our eyes to the eventual enslavement of all mankind?  Or is he simply crying wolf?   I don't know.   And neither do you. 

  • Lawrence Finch Level 7 Level 7 (29,590 points)

    If NSA has these secure systems you talk about, how do you explain Edward Snowden's released top secret documents? He was a low level Sys Admin who did not have a Need to Know.

  • Lawrence Finch Level 7 Level 7 (29,590 points)

    But Johnathan, you are forgetting that Applebaum is a source of The Truth, but Forbes is a capitalist tool and merely a mouthpiece for the government.

  • Reinhard Kilmer Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Many users around the world want a technically official statement from Apple.

     

    - Yes, the user can check it - with this method …

     

    or

     

    - No, there isn’t a method to check it, you have to accept and believe that this device is clean.

  • Tapakovci Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Reinhard es gibt keine offizielle Methode (ausser Jailbreak was nicht unterstüzt ist) um herauszufinden ob in iPhone eine Malware ist, die "ach so klugen" highlevel user hier wollen dich überzeugen das es sowas wie dropoutjeep überhaupt nicht gibt. Mehr sage ich dazu hier nicht, damit ich nicht wieder gelöscht und beleidigt werde.

    Falls du interesse hast an einer Diskussion schreibe mir Email.

  • Meg St._Clair Level 8 Level 8 (42,805 points)

    CanadianBacon67 wrote:

     

    As unbelievable as it seems, after reading 7 pages of this discussion thread, not one person has stated the obvious; NO ONE on here (myself included), has the first clue about what is actually happening in regards to the NSA, or anything else. 

    You're absolutely right and are saying what I've been saying all along. We have no proof of anything and nothing abou which we can speak with any authority.

     

    Rather than dismissing or attacking each other, why not do some research?  Stimulate an intelligent, thoughtful discussion?  

    This is a technical support forum, not a discussion forum. There is no further technical support to be provide here beyond what has already been discussed. This is not an appropriate venue for political discussions.

  • thomas_r. Level 7 Level 7 (29,800 points)

    Nowhere in NSA document has any Jailbreak-requirement been noted.

     

    There is only one single-page NSA document that this entire issue is based on, and it very clearly says that it requires physical access. See:

     

    NSA iPhone hack is uninteresting

     

    If you want to believe in a remote hack that can be applied to all iPhones, without any actual evidence, that's not a logically sound position, but it's your business. Expect to be laughed at, though, just like people who believe in Bigfoot and alien abductions without any evidence.

  • Lawrence Finch Level 7 Level 7 (29,590 points)

    Albatrosser wrote:

     

    I see no basis in your claim. I am sure NSA have computer system with operating systems featuring accessible filesystems that are far more secure than an easilly jailbreakable iPhone with a file system not accessible to the owner. The file system is obviuosly available for jailbreakers and for NSA hijackers, and for Apple, but not for the owner of the device. That is a false sense of security.

    The REAL false sense of security is believing that if you could access the file system you could tell if your phone was infected with something. I have the skill infect your phone with malware that you could never find, even if you could access the "file system". Do you think phones infected with DROPOUT JEEP (if such a thing exists) have a file somewhere named DROPOUTJEEP.EXE? And don't suggest some sort of virus scanner; virus scanners are truly lame. All they can do is detect malware that they already know about. By definition JEEP is not one they know about, because you must actually have a copy of malware to be able to add it to your database and thus search for it. "Good" malware constantly morphs itself, and is undetectable. How do you think the STUXNET worm went two years undetected in Iran's Uranium centrifuges? Most experts believe it was developed by NSA or an equivalent agency. Do you think they couldn't do just as good a job on JEEP?

     

    The "best" malware is not visible in any file system. It is at a level below the file system, in the code that manages the file system or the boot partition, a so-called "rootkit" infection. And even if you could access the file system that wouldn't help you. And of course, you could just add your malcode to an existing app or OS module. Unless you knew the expected length of each of the tens of thousands of modules you couldn't detect that either. And I could even make the reported lengths look right. Especially if I was as skilled as you believe NSA to be.

     

    So the answer to the question at the top of this thread is that there is no way that you can tell if your phone is infected with DROPOUT JEEP or any other competently written malware.

  • Albatrosser Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Lawrence Finch wrote:

     

    If NSA has these secure systems you talk about, how do you explain Edward Snowden's released top secret documents? He was a low level Sys Admin who did not have a Need to Know.

    He was trusted, and therefore had access.. In the same way that a number of Apple employees today are trused by millions of iPhone users, that have granted them with the "admin"  and "root" power  (Signing applications and distriubting code to iDevices, and complete access to inject any code in any app in the appstore) of pretty much any phone except the jailbroken ones, which could at least potentially be protected.

  • Albatrosser Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    Lawrence Finch wrote:

     

    Albatrosser wrote:

     

    I see no basis in your claim. I am sure NSA have computer system with operating systems featuring accessible filesystems that are far more secure than an easilly jailbreakable iPhone with a file system not accessible to the owner. The file system is obviuosly available for jailbreakers and for NSA hijackers, and for Apple, but not for the owner of the device. That is a false sense of security.

    The REAL false sense of security is believing that if you could access the file system you could tell if your phone was infected with something. I have the skill infect your phone with malware that you could never find, even if you could access the "file system". Do you think phones infected with DROPOUT JEEP (if such a thing exists) have a file somewhere named DROPOUTJEEP.EXE? And don't suggest some sort of virus scanner; virus scanners are truly lame. All they can do is detect malware that they already know about. By definition JEEP is not one they know about, because you must actually have a copy of malware to be able to add it to your database and thus search for it. "Good" malware constantly morphs itself, and is undetectable. How do you think the STUXNET worm went two years undetected in Iran's Uranium centrifuges? Most experts believe it was developed by NSA or an equivalent agency. Do you think they couldn't do just as good a job on JEEP?

     

    The "best" malware is not visible in any file system. It is at a level below the file system, in the code that manages the file system or the boot partition, a so-called "rootkit" infection. And even if you could access the file system that wouldn't help you. And of course, you could just add your malcode to an existing app or OS module. Unless you knew the expected length of each of the tens of thousands of modules you couldn't detect that either. And I could even make the reported lengths look right. Especially if I was as skilled as you believe NSA to be.

     

    So the answer to the question at the top of this thread is that there is no way that you can tell if your phone is infected with DROPOUT JEEP or any other competently written malware.

     

    Sorry, but that is a load of ... The ONLY way of having any real chance of being in control of your own device is to at least have full access rights to the OS and the files. Without that you are driving blind, and have to be a man of faith, not of science.

  • deggie Level 8 Level 8 (49,020 points)

    No, that isn't the only way and even if you had it as many have told you here you would have a difficult time identifying any malware that was on the phone. What you are proposing is that Apple make their OS more like Windows where you could buy antivirus/antispyware/antimalware software from a number of 3rd party vendors. Would you trust them more than Apple?

     

    I would suggest you send feedback to Apple with this suggestion but that really is a total waste of time as are your posts here. If you want a device that gives you total access to the OS and files there is none available at this time. The closest you will get are the various variants of Android but do your research as each manufacturer can alter the OS. Skip Windows Mobile 8 as they are locked down even more than Apple.

     

    Buy the device that suits your needs.

  • Albatrosser Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    thomas_r. wrote:

     

    Nowhere in NSA document has any Jailbreak-requirement been noted.

     

    There is only one single-page NSA document that this entire issue is based on, and it very clearly says that it requires physical access. See:

     

    NSA iPhone hack is uninteresting

     

    If you want to believe in a remote hack that can be applied to all iPhones, without any actual evidence, that's not a logically sound position, but it's your business. Expect to be laughed at, though, just like people who believe in Bigfoot and alien abductions without any evidence.

     

    You are referring to one leaked documents from 2008. It borders to insanity to believe NSA has been inactive on these issues the years from that leaked document until today.

  • Albatrosser Level 1 Level 1 (0 points)

    deggie wrote:

     

    No, that isn't the only way and even if you had it as many have told you here you would have a difficult time identifying any malware that was on the phone. What you are proposing is that Apple make their OS more like Windows where you could buy antivirus/antispyware/antimalware software from a number of 3rd party vendors. Would you trust them more than Apple?

     

    I would suggest you send feedback to Apple with this suggestion but that really is a total waste of time as are your posts here. If you want a device that gives you total access to the OS and files there is none available at this time. The closest you will get are the various variants of Android but do your research as each manufacturer can alter the OS. Skip Windows Mobile 8 as they are locked down even more than Apple.

     

    Buy the device that suits your needs.

     

    Why compare with Windows, and not OS X? I believe OS X is a rather secure OS on a Mac, despite the fact that we as users are granted system rights, don't you think?

  • deggie Level 8 Level 8 (49,020 points)

    No it doesn't, they moved on to different means of collecting data as singling out iPhones would not be an effective program when you can move on and collect data from all of them. The NSA, like all bureacracies, is a very competitive place. Even with the funds they have some programs get funded, and the people running them get recognized, others get cancelled. A sane person would recognize that this one didn't make it or there would be later documents available.

  • deggie Level 8 Level 8 (49,020 points)

    Because OS X isn't as riddled with security issues as Windows and this is by design. And parts of OS X are not accessible.

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